PSP Sieve + SOB Sieve

[gomeler]

I've been searching and searching for an answer and I haven't been able to find one.. when I sieve for PSP are my results also applicable to SOB Sieve? Should I try and reserve the same ranges between the two projects or simply submit the fact.txt files to SOB Sieve and hope I sieved between viable ranges? The amount of information on these sieve projects is scare and hard to collect so any direct help would be great. Thanks for any heads up.

[Death]

from "_read me first.txt" )))

COMBINED Seventeenorbust / PSP Project
--------------------------------------

***********************************************************
* THIS IS THE DAT WHICH IS HIGHLY SUGGESTED AT THIS TIME. *
***********************************************************

You can download this dat here:
http://www.teamprimerib.com/vjs

Look for a file "Combined Dat"
and choose the most recent file with the lowest number of k's.

such as:
Combined_Dat_SoB_PSP_19K_991-50M_Oct_2006.zip

This dat searches for factors for the remaining 19k's over the n-range of
991 to 50,000,000.
(this dat will decrease to a 18K or 17K dat as primes are found in either project.)

The advantage of using this dat is your over doubling your contribution by participating in both projects.
The speed is a little slower compared to a SoB or PSP only dat but the pay-off is well worth it.

Reservations are made here:
http://www.mersenneforum.org/showthread.php?t=2666

------------------------------------------------------------

[vjs]

Thanks Death!

Yup as Death pointed out, if the description is not clear let us know.

[gomeler]

That's the DAT file I've been using all along, time to create an SOB account and start getting credit for the SOB sieving as well as the PSP Sieving. Thanks for the info guys :)

question: when submitting my sieve results, do I submit them to http://www.seventeenorbust.com/sieve/ and how do I claim them as my own?

[vjs]

Pretty simple,

Lars over at PSP has been submitting them so they are not lost factors.

But if you want to get personal credit you simply have to sign up for SoB and submit your factors here first (link you provided) then PSP.

Thanks for running the combined dat and helping us out.

[BlisteringSheep]

VJS,
Do you want to update the dat files in your directory (http://www.teamprimerib.com/vjs), especially if it's referenced in the readme? Joe & Lars have an updated one at http://www.psp-project.de/test/sievecomb.zip. I know that performance-wise it shouldn't make a huge difference, but still....

[gomeler]

Excellent! Just submitted the factors that I had finished crunching yesterday and they were validated :) Thanks for all the help guys, time to pass the info on to the XS community.

[vjs]

Willdo, probably later this week RL has caught up with me.

[gomeler]

Ok well now I'm curious and frustrated, I submitted the factors for a 800G and 300G range to the Seventeenorbus.com/sieve/ form while logged in as my subteam XSthemachine and it hasn't credited any points or even added the username to the XS team over at stats.free-dc.org. Does it take longer than 18 hours for the stats server or am I missing a step? Tired of being in 49th place, want to advance ;)

[BlisteringSheep]

My understanding is that they are scored manually & usually take a couple of weeks (or more) to post. If you look at the free-dc page (http://stats.free-dc.org/new/projpage.php?proj=sbs) or the SB Sieving and factoring scores page (http://www.henleyclan.co.uk/sobsieve/alltime/scores.htm) they were last updated 18-Feb-2007.

[gomeler]

Oh.. I was just so used to the PSP Sieve with instant-gratification :p: Thanks, I'm just impatient and want results Now and not yesterday :\

[BlisteringSheep]

:hiya: I completely understand. :cool: Here's what I've done to cope, since I only do combined sieving, not dedicated SoB sieving. I look at the SoB points as a bonus. I'm not sure when it's going to come in, or how big it's going to be, but when they show up it's like a surprise :|party|: present. I've even trained myself to stop hitting refresh every few minutes. :jester: There should be some sort of :help: group for us :crazy: statsaholics. But i fear that it would be something along the lines of :Pokes: :gangpunch :haddock: :bonk: :weggy:!!

:cheers: :sheep:

[shauge]

I am no expert, but have made some observations. Please correct me if I am mistaken. The SOB sieve stats is different than most other stats. Instead of giving credits for the amount of sieve work you have done, it gives credits for how much work your sieve effort have saved work in the main SOB project. The main project tests all numbers that fits this formula k*2^n +1 to check if they are primes. The project does this with increasing n values. Sieving has a different approach, it looks at increasing large numbers and checks if any number that follows the above formula is a factor of that number. If it is, the n value of the factor is not tested in the main project. Thus, work is saved.

The combined sieve is partly rework for the SOB project. It has been sieved already for n's up to 20M. This means that most SOB n's that is found is larger than 20M. The main project is currently at n approx. 13M. So, it will be some time until the combined sieve effort will save work for the main project. Until then only low stats credits will be given and hardly enough to move anywhere in the stats. You have to look at the SOB sieve credits as an almost free bonus that will/may pay large dividents in the future. Good patience is needed :)

[Death]

basically you go to http://www.seventeenorbust.com/sieve/ and submit your fact.txt. you should be logged at site to gain scores.
then you also submit factexcl.txt at the above page. this is needed for gap analysis.

then you wait. )))

[BlisteringSheep]

basically you go to http://www.seventeenorbust.com/sieve/ and submit your fact.txt. you should be logged at site to gain scores.
then you also submit factexcl.txt at the above page. this is needed for gap analysis.

then you wait. )))

Death, are you saying that we submit factexcl.txt in the form at http://www.seventeenorbust.com/sieve/? I've never done it before because my previous PSP/SOB sieve client didn't create factexcl.txt, but now I've got proth_sieve for combined sieving.
:sheep:

[Joe O]

Death, are you saying that we submit factexcl.txt in the form at http://www.seventeenorbust.com/sieve/? I've never done it before because my previous PSP/SOB sieve client didn't create factexcl.txt, but now I've got proth_sieve for combined sieving.
:sheep:

In my personal opinion, submitting factexcl.txt at http://www.seventeenorbust.com/sieve/ should not be done. It just fills up the database unnecessarily. They are, after all, duplicates. I urge people to submit them to factrange, but that is for a different reason. I process them to find the lowest factor for a k n pair. This is only necessary for some density studies that I am doing, but I can live without them.
AFAIK the PSP folk do not welcome them either.

[BlisteringSheep]

Okay. I only did a few, but won't do any more. I'm curious, though, about what it means for them to be duplicates. Wouldn't that mean that they would all validate as "0 of the results were new results and saved to the database."? Some of the ones that I put in did indicate that they were new results (ie. the value was not 0 in the new results line).

What exactly are the three files: fact.txt, factexcl.tat and factrange.txt?

[Joe O]

Okay. I only did a few, but won't do any more. I'm curious, though, about what it means for them to be duplicates. Wouldn't that mean that they would all validate as "0 of the results were new results and saved to the database."? Some of the ones that I put in did indicate that they were new results (ie. the value was not 0 in the new results line).

What exactly are the three files: fact.txt, factexcl.tat and factrange.txt?

Dat is the question! And the answer.
If a k n pair is in the dat, a factor found for it is written into fact.txt.
Else if the n value is outside the nmin and nmax for the dat it is written into factrange.txt
Else it is written to factexcl.txt.

So a factor is written to factexcl.txt if a factor has already been found for it before the dat was created.

The submission database does not check the dat. It only checks itself. If no previous factor has been submitted for a k n pair, the new factor is accepted. If a factor has been previously submitted for a k n pair, the new factor is not accepted.

Since the submission database has no knowledge of factors submitted before it was created, it can and does accept factors that are really duplicates. These are found in the scoring process and so marked.

[BlisteringSheep]

Joe, Thanks so much for the clear explanation. Is there any value in keeping the factrange factors for potential use by other (possibly future) efforts? Or is it just too much trouble for the benefit. Or would they never be useful for anything.

Also, why doesn't the submission db check the dat? Would it just add too much CPU/memory load?

Yes, I'm trying to actually understand. :) You know how dense I can be.
:sheep:

[Joe O]

Joe, Thanks so much for the clear explanation. Is there any value in keeping the factrange factors for potential use by other (possibly future) efforts? Or is it just too much trouble for the benefit. Or would they never be useful for anything.

Also, why doesn't the submission db check the dat? Would it just add too much CPU/memory load?

Yes, I'm trying to actually understand. :) You know how dense I can be.
:sheep:

Keeping factrange will help in initially reducing the size of the new dat for the new range, but it will not reduce the sieving effort beyond that. For example, we would still have to sieve all of 50M to 100M if we need to continue n above 50M. There is no magic number, like 51M or 52M or whatever, that we could use as the minimum for the new effort instead of 50M.
I don't know why SB doesn't check the dat, but PSP doesn't check as the factors are submitted, because of CPU and memory constraints and a db design issue. PSP does however check before storing and scoring the factors.

[gomeler]

So I noticed that the SOB Sieve stats were updated earlier today when I was making my rounds and noticed that my username (xsthemachine) still hasn't been added to the XS team in SOB:S and there was no credit given, I guess my stuff is still queued up?

[Joe O]

So I noticed that the SOB Sieve stats were updated earlier today when I was making my rounds and noticed that my username (xsthemachine) still hasn't been added to the XS team in SOB:S and there was no credit given, I guess my stuff is still queued up?
The closest user name that I could find is
http://www.seventeenorbust.com/stats/users/user.mhtml?userID=8065
Is that you? Or is this you
http://www.seventeenorbust.com/profiles/?username=XSTheMachine
If that is not you, then you need to sign up on that page.
When you have a user id you will then be able to go in to your preferences and select your team. You control your team affiliation.
Were you logged in when you submitted your factors?
Alway make sure you log in when you submit factors.
Did your factors appear under unkown?

[gomeler]

I submitted my results as XSTheMachine which is a subteam of XtremeSystems. Don't know who gmoeller is, that'd be a horrendous misspelling on my part. I was logged in as XSTheMachine on the SOB.com/sieve website and then submitted my results and it accepted them. Should I resubmit the results? I've got a folder where I store all my sieve data and I can just go through it and submit the fact.txt files again.

[BlisteringSheep]

gomeler, just as a sanity check, when you submitted them do you remember how many of the factors were valid SoB factors and how many were new? You only get credits for ones that are both.


X of Y verified in 0.11 secs.
Z of the results were new results and saved to the database.

[vjs]

Couple of quick questions...

Which ranges are you sieving? Are you reserving them on Matt's site or helping out with the combined effort?

The only place where I see reservations for you is in the PSP listings.

If that is the case you will not find too many (or any) factors which score for SoB. The issue is if Mikes site the one you are checking it only gives credit for factors n<20M. Since we have already sieved those psp ranges with a 1<n<20M date we only find a rare factor now and again n<20M. What we do find are alot of SoB factors between 20M and 50M for both SoB and PSP. Those factors are stored in the SoB database but no credit is given yet.

If you would like a more detailed explaination it's been discssed elsewhere.

Just to let you know that when SoB does decide to give credit to those factors you will recieve credit for them.

.... am I barking up the right tree??? ....

[Joe O]

The database has the following recent results:

446621807703371 55459 48980974 11256 517
446628368841619 19249 45943898 11256 517
446660407685071 21181 20402300 11256 517
446684627870363 22699 45849718 11256 517
446697422820799 10223 22360517 11256 517
446700413770939 24737 25459303 11256 517
446720083964677 24737 20935543 11256 517
446734339692863 24737 29144287 11256 517
446746354234889 33661 37693536 11256 517
446798969213717 55459 25221046 11256 517
446806486088471 22699 20516158 11256 517
446821744170449 21181 48965780 11256 517
446832861258299 21181 40535084 11256 517
446865680232863 21181 42185708 11256 517
446868533691149 33661 48129792 11256 517
446891616993427 24737 42532327 11256 517
446899705908581 10223 36044165 11256 517

If these are the results that you are asking about, then there is no reason to resubmit.

[gomeler]

Yup those are from one of the PSP ranges I did, from the sounds of things I won't be getting any credit or atleast anytime soon. Thanks for the help guys, I'll keep submitting the factors to the SOB/sieve form and maybe one day I'll end up getting credit. Guess I raised a big stir over something rather pointless. In the future I guess I should reserve SOB ranges and crunch w/ a SOB client then to receive immediate SOB points?

[vjs]

Actually if imediate points is what you are looking for you really need to do P-1 in the factoring forum.

I would suggest you keep on with the combined effort reserving ranges at psp. That is the most efficeint sieve at the moment. Once we get those ranges to about 800T we are going to have to make some decisions.