A Final Discussion About the Future [Archive]

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Dyyryath

11-21-2002, 01:22 PM

Alright campers, it's looking more and more likely that we're going to try something new here at Free-DC. The original plan was to drastically expand Free-DC to include a bunch of new things. Through a week's worth of discussion, though, a new plan is slowly forming. Many people pointed out that Free-DC would always struggle to be useful to other teams so long as it had teams of it's own. Nobody (myself included) really thought that dropping or even renaming the Free-DC teams to alleviate this concern was a good idea, so the possibility of naming this new endeavor something else entirely was raised. It seems like a good compromise.

What does that mean, exactly? Well, it means we'd scale back Free-DC to being a pure team site. The hosting of the Distributed Folding & Seventeen or Bust forums would belong to the new 'parent' organization. Most of the forums areas under 'General' would also belong to this new organization. All of the forums under 'Distributed Computing Projects' would be placed under 'Free-DC' which would live under 'Hosted Teams' in the new arrangement. The Free-DC website would remain at it's current location with it's current design (though I have a really cool idea for keeping news updated on it ;)).

In a nutshell, we'd create a new organization one step above Free-DC, which among other things would offer certain services to any team that wants them. One of those services would be forums. Free-DC would simply be the first team taking advantage of this arrangement.

What other services will we try to offer? IRC seems like a likely one, Marc_1 has already offered to help with this. Ideally, any team that wants one should be able to set up their own channel with their own operators. Stats support is another offering that seems like a given. File mirroring for third party apps, forums for third party apps (to allow users to post questions/comments etc about said apps), proxies for projects that use them, you name it and we'll try to offer it. A computer database like the Ars Super Computer? Sounds like a winner. I've even got a vague notion on how to automate team and/or project specific news feeds to websites that want them from a Slash-based front page.

So, what do we call this new 'thing'?

I spent several hours last night agonizing over what might be appropriate. It needed to be descriptive, simple, and completely team and project agnostic. With all that in mind, I've registered "distributed-computing.org". I think it should work well enough. ;)

Now, I'm willing to do as much of the backend/programming/setup stuff as I have time for. I'm willing to work on site design, stats (obviously ;)), and pretty much anything else that falls beyond the abilities of the average user, but all this will be pretty worthless without CONTENT. Obviously, I'll chip in with whatever I have time for content-wise, but without a large number of people actively involved and building content, this will simply become a waste of my time. One of my reasons for pushing the Slashdot style front page is because it allows pretty much anyone in the community to help with content rather than relying on a handful of news posters. I think this is a good thing. We will, however, need people to do other things, like FAQs, benchmarking, write-ups on various projects, guides on how to setup clients, you name it, we'll need it. Interviews seem like they'd be a hit, too, so we'll need to come up with a good way to do those.

Is everyone starting to see how much this is going to rely on people other than me? ;)

This is the last step before we stop talking about this and start doing it. If you're willing to contribute, post and let me know. If you have an idea that you think we should hear, post and let me know. If you have something specific you'd like to contribute, I'd love to hear it. If you're not sure what you'd be able to do, but you want to help, I'd like to hear that, too. I'm quite sure that we can find something for everyone to do. :D

I'm also going to need some programmer/designer types with technical skills and some responsible, diplomatic types to act in moderator/operator/administrator roles and keep everything civilized around here.

If we have any graphic artists out there, I'd LOVE to hear from you. I enjoy doing graphics, but it's terribly time consuming for me (I'm never quite pleased with my own work), and we're going to need some.

I've had lots of people tell me in here, in email, and in IRC that they thought this was a great idea and that they wanted to help, which is the main reason I've continued thinking about this. Here's the place to offer again. Here's where I'm trying to gauge just how much help is out there and how serious everyone is about it.

If you're a regular on another forum where you think people might find this endeavor of interest, feel free to fill them in and direct them here, this isn't just a Free-DC thing anymore. We'll take comments from anyone in the DC community at this point. :thumbs:

So, there we are. If there is sufficient interest, and enough people are willing to help, it looks like we're going to take a stab at this. If not, then...well, then we won't. ;)

-----------------

For anybody just getting here, you can find the first thread on this subject with the original ideas right here (http://www.free-dc.org/forum/showthread.php3?s=&threadid=1947).

The second thread where we tried to get a feel for how to go about it is right here (http://www.free-dc.org/forum/showthread.php3?s=&threadid=1967).

That should get everyone up to speed on where this came from. ;)

MrTRS

11-21-2002, 02:21 PM

Well let me be the first to offer to help.

Now I don't have any advanced skills. I have done some basic html. Graphics by somebody else. I have an advanced degree, but not in computers. The only way I got ANY degree was "spell check." I can not spell worth any thing.

The only thing I can offer is time. I've got lots of free time. So if you can think of something an unemployed computer hobbiest can do then I'm your guy.

Ray

(PS maybe hang out in irc to point people to the new web site)

ColinT

11-21-2002, 02:34 PM

The new organization sould follow several concepts. Magazine - like TheInq, User post driven - SlashDot, or a combinatation of the two.

I have no skills to contribute except editing written material. In the past I edited some magazines.

Name? DC World.

MAD-ness

11-21-2002, 02:41 PM

I have no technical skills (technically, I am an idiot, but I don't think that is what they mean by 'technical') but I have some time and I seem to be good at bugging people who actually have skills until they use them for whatever cause I happen to be working for. ;)

Interviews, FAQs, collecting information, pestering people to share scripts, etc. Let me know.

dragongoddess

11-21-2002, 03:07 PM

Now let me get this straight.
You wish to become the /. of DC.
You will have teams.
You will be active in recruiting other teams under your banner by offering IRC and forums.
The results of this will be a less than competitive DC environment. The loss of team identity. And finally the loss of interest in DC. Not a good idea from where I'm standing.

Marc_1

11-21-2002, 03:30 PM

Marc_1

11-21-2002, 03:48 PM

Originally posted by Dyyryath

SNIP

What other services will we try to offer? IRC seems like a likely one, Marc_1 has already offered to help with this. Ideally, any team that wants one should be able to set up their own channel with their own operators. Stats support is another offering that seems like a given. File mirroring for third party apps, forums for third party apps (to allow users to post questions/comments etc about said apps), proxies for projects that use them, you name it and we'll try to offer it. A computer database like the Ars Super Computer? Sounds like a winner. I've even got a vague notion on how to automate team and/or project specific news feeds to websites that want them from a Slash-based front page.

SNIP

As far as IRC goes, I don't see any reason why there can't be one big network related to Distributed Computing. I mean there are IRC networks related to Open Source Software, Games, GNU/Linux and other operating systems, and a whole slew of other stuff. Why not Distributed Computing? I know alot of people already take advantage of several IRC servers, why not a central one devoted to nothing but DC where you don't have to search through 297 channels named #1337h4x0rs0nly or something.

Teams can have their own channel, Projects can have their own channel all with their own OP's and control. Firewall issues can be handled by web-based clients, which improve more everyday. There are countless possibilities.

IRC can be fun and a fast way of sharing information and knowledge. Something everyone can benefit from.

Marc

Dyyryath

11-21-2002, 04:09 PM

Originally posted by dragongoddess
Now let me get this straight.
You wish to become the /. of DC.
You will have teams.
You will be active in recruiting other teams under your banner by offering IRC and forums.
The results of this will be a less than competitive DC environment. The loss of team identity. And finally the loss of interest in DC. Not a good idea from where I'm standing.

Heh, not *quite* what I meant, so let me try to clarify. Free-DC will effectively stay "Free-DC". Let's put Free-DC out of our minds for a second.

Now envision a new organization meant primarily to promote Distributed Computing as a whole. No emphasis on any particular project or team. It's primary goal would be to provide infrastructure that isn't readily available to all projects or teams already.

Hosting the forums for Distributed Folding or Seventeen or Bust is a good example. While most of the larger projects (United Devices, BOINC, distributed.net) and teams (Ars, AnandTech, HardOCP, etc) have no need of such help, many of the smaller projects and groups do. When a new team (in any project) starts out, they don't always have access to hosting environments, IRC servers, forums, and so on.

Since we already have much of this in place, why not share it with others? Why not offer space in the forums to teams & projects that need it? Why not offer to host project sites (much like IronBits & I both have for ArsTechnica)?

As for the Slashdot-like front page, having a central place for news & events that pertain to any or all teams seems to be a good thing. I'm actively interested in what's happening at many teams that I'm not a part of. It'd be nice to keep up with them without spending hours a day going from one forum to another.

All of this will have nothing to do with Free-DC. Some of the things currently handled directly by Free-DC (i.e. the DF & SoB project forums we host) will be moved directly under this new organization, but aside from that, Free-DC will be it's own, multi-project, team-oriented entity.

What about Free-DC's forums? We've already discussed that this new organization will offer hosting for teams that need it. Free-DC will take advantage of that. So should any other team interested in doing so.

To sum this all up in the shortest possible way: www.distributed-computing.org would not treat Free-DC any differently than any other project or team. While many of us (myself included) may be a part of both, hopefully we'll have help from people who are members of other teams as well. ;)

EDIT:

A final thing that could probably use saying...any team or project that elected to take advantage of anything distributed-computing.org had to offer would not suddenly become a part of distributed-computing.org any more than the Distributed Folding project has become a part of Free-DC. Projects & teams would be expected to maintain their own individual identities with their own leaders and direction.

I think we've already proven that this can work while hosting the DF forums here at Free-DC.

Dyyryath

11-21-2002, 04:15 PM

Originally posted by Marc_1

As far as IRC goes, I don't see any reason why there can't be one big network related to Distributed Computing. I mean there are IRC networks related to Open Source Software, Games, GNU/Linux and other operating systems, and a whole slew of other stuff. Why not Distributed Computing? I know alot of people already take advantage of several IRC servers, why not a central one devoted to nothing but DC where you don't have to search through 297 channels named #1337h4x0rs0nly or something.

Teams can have their own channel, Projects can have their own channel all with their own OP's and control. Firewall issues can be handled by web-based clients, which improve more everyday. There are countless possibilities.

IRC can be fun and a fast way of sharing information and knowledge. Something everyone can benefit from.

Marc

This seems like a no-brainer, but I'm not "in the loop" enough in the IRC world to really comment on it.

It's certainly something I'd love to see happen, though... :cool:

Geordie

11-21-2002, 09:17 PM

This is my understanding...I was sceptical at first also.

You will have teams.
No, Free DC will have teams, not owned by the new site.

You will be active in recruiting other teams under your banner by offering IRC and forums.
Not under the Free-DC banner. It will simply provide a service to the teams, not try and assimilate them into Free-DC.

The results of this will be a less than competitive DC environment.
How? This isn't intending to reduce the number of teams, just to create a central resource for information, downloads, IRC services etc.

The loss of team identity. And finally the loss of interest in DC. Not a good idea from where I'm standing.
I would agree, but does my interpretation make sense? We are not intending to loose all the team forums, that will never happen, could you imagine, Ars, Anand and [H] uping sticks and moving here?
However some teams don't have (and can't afford more to the point) their own forums. These would be hosted for free.

Teams can have their own channel, Projects can have their own channel all with their own OP's and control. Firewall issues can be handled by web-based clients, which improve more everyday. There are countless possibilities.

I remember when Quakenet was in its infancy. Now its massive and every clan has a channel. I think it would be a great idea. I used to use IRC a lot and ran a server for a while (conference room though I admit). It was a long time ago though and I'm a bit rusty but would be prepared to help out. I've also got 2 permanent UK based dsl connects that I could run servers from.

I would also be prepared to write guides, do hardware reviews (I tend to buy a fair bit of kit myself for DC/Gaming and upgrade stuff fairly regularly). I've got a fair bit of stuff already on my own site that I would be prepared to contribute.

Digital Parasite

11-22-2002, 08:08 AM

Dyyryath: What kind of programming skills do you need and for what type of work?

Jeff.

dragongoddess

11-22-2002, 09:40 AM

Questions

Who and how will this be paid for.
Bandwidth is not free
Servers are not free
Software is not free
Power is not free
Space for setup is not free
Time is not free
Legal costs are not free

This will require more than than an hour or two every few days.
Your design will require someones full time attention.
How many people will be needed?
How will these people get paid for their
time?
Where will the money come from to support these goals you have?
Will DC members have to pay for the code they run?
I have other questions but the dog needs walking.

Marc_1

11-22-2002, 10:17 AM

Originally posted by dragongoddess
Questions

Who and how will this be paid for.
Bandwidth is not free
Servers are not free
Software is not free
Power is not free
Space for setup is not free
Time is not free
Legal costs are not free

This will require more than than an hour or two every few days.
Your design will require someones full time attention.
How many people will be needed?
How will these people get paid for their
time?
Where will the money come from to support these goals you have?
Will DC members have to pay for the code they run?
I have other questions but the dog needs walking.

Seeing as you've taken to cross-posting, I shall do the same.

What I would like to know, is what gave you this money issue?

Nowhere in any of the posts Dyyryath has made has money even been mentioned. Nor has it been part of any of our private conversations on the matter. How do you come to involve money in this matter?

What makes you think that this new venture will be run any different than the current incarnation of Free-DC or any of the other teams sites for that matter? Having seen nothing in any thread that mentions funding or matters of financial support, where do you get the idea this is different?

Free-DC has been, and shall continue to be, run by volunteers. People with an interest and resources to share. It's no different than any of the Ars teams sites, or any of the other major team's sites. I fail to see this conclusion you're drawing.

If for some reason you see this as a commercialization of Distributed Computing, I'd like to know how you come to see it this way. If you have other issues please state them openly, or email myself, Dyyryath, or JTrinkle directly. Resorting to unfounded and totally baseless assumptions will benefit no one.

Marc

Darkness Productions

11-22-2002, 10:57 AM

Ooh... /me raises hand!

I can help out with the backend programming as well as the HTML if you need it Dyy. I also am planning on getting a machine put up on a colo connection here locally, for IRC (that wasn't its original use, but now, it has solidified the thought in my mind).

If there's anything you all want me to do, just email me dp [at] dp [dot] cx.

dragongoddess

11-22-2002, 11:01 AM

Marc

first let me say I forgot to add the cost of storage to my list. That will be a huge cost for whom ever foots that bill.

Now your desires are to become the /. of DC. Am I correct in that statement?

While volunteers have worked for Free DC its not going to work for the stated goal of Dy. That goal is to move to a more intensive web presence for DC. A be all to end all for DC.
That is the equivalent of going from a mom and pop hardware store today to a Home Depot next week. It will cost a bundle of money to do that. Where does this money come from. Who will handle the cost of bandwidth for 10,50 or 100 or more teams for your IRC channels, your forums, your downloads and whatever else I have forgotten.

Now where did the money issue come from. Plainly put it cannot work as envisoned if its a volunteer project. Not going to happen. Too costly and time intensive. If it is to have a chance of success then it must be done as a business venture. And that my friends means money. Money for equipment, Money for software, Money for payroll, Money for a LAWYER and money for all of the little odds and ends that crop up.

I'm not attacking the people involved so don't even go there. I'm just trying to point out areas you have seemed to have overlooked. Areas that must be considered if you wish your project to be a success.

Jetta

11-23-2002, 11:27 AM

dragongoddess .... the vast majority of tech sites on the web are done as volunteer sites, or started as them. Ars, /. , mac/ and many many others. Sure in the future ads or subscription type methods may be needed to subsidize bandwidth costs. But as a group of DC junkies, I very much doubt that hardware would ever be an issue. Web hosting does not use a ton of cpu power, you can still run a DC project on a web server as long as it is high powered enough.

I dont think the money issue was overlooked, it just isnt something that needs to be discussed by the users. Dyy and the free-dc crew will need to figure that out when it is needed. But at this time, there is no reason to put money issues out in the public.

SAK

11-23-2002, 07:37 PM

I would love to help out as much as possible :)

For starters, I could do a general info AND client setup stuff for d2ol and sengent. I've done this in the past probably 100 times. I've done it on 3 separate websites, and probably manually walked over 40 people through the whole process. I go into painstaking detail ;)

I could also do some general DC info, perhaps some info on windows and the priority system (I can't stand it when ppl are misinformed and get the wrong idea about it).

hehe anyhow, I should read the rest of your post before replying. I just got to the part where you said you'll need other ppl to help out :D

Looking forward to becoming a part of this organization!

MAD-ness

11-24-2002, 08:32 PM

The Sengent client definitely needs good guides.

I have installed it a few times, a good guide is a must.

runestar

11-25-2002, 03:15 PM

First of all, as long as Dyyryath and crew feel they don't need to mention monetary concerns to the public at this time, we should respect that and their judgement.

Perhaps they are becoming Home Depot, but Home Depot didn't expand into a chain overnight. It started with one store and slowly expanded one store at a time. I've watched old chains and new chains come and go over the years, and the Home Depot analogy is very good... good prices and equally good service, along with careful expansion has led it to a major force out here in California.

Except unlike Home Depot, the new organization will be non-commericial. I heistate to say non-profit as that is kind of a contradiction. If an organization didn't make some kind of profit, it would go broke very quickly. The organization does profit, but aside from overhead and administrative costs, all money created goes to the causes it is dedicated to.

I am sure that in the internal discussions that Dyyryrath and all the other crew will lay down plans for funding, present and future, as needed. They don't plan to blindly rush into this as evident by the lengthy discussions. ;)

Now to address Dyyryath et al.'s comments. I was a little disappointed to hear you were going somewhat distance Free-DC from the parent organization.. but the plan sounds good and I think it wil address a lot of the critic's concerns about seperation of the entities. I know it will not address everybody's concerns. So people just have this unreasonable paranoia that if things aren't exactly a certain way, your motives are not on the up and up, so to speak.

This isn't about them though. ;) This about the DC community... everybody from the end-user on the client end, to the teams, to the project managers without being all-inclusive of just predefined areas.

I am still offering my help for the new service for the DC community. I heistate to offer help in any specific area as I enjoy working with many different things and don't want to limit myself to any one area. I would say I am interesting in news, guides, and finding new resources for the various projects. I would say helping to spread the word about this new service and resource, but everyone helping out should be helping to that up to the extent of their time and ability.

One concern I do have is that someone suggested that the new service review technology and how it runs DC projects instead of the usual array of benchmarks and applications. I'm a little concerned that will end up making yet another hardware review site. Whiles I have nothing against such sites, that's not the purpose of this project.

I am thinking of one alternate possibility is we invite different hardware sites to run the various different DC clients on their test machines. Directions would be given on how to obtain and setup the client, and in what way to monitor the results. The article would be featured here, and may or may not be written in conjunction with the testers, and a special thank-you message along with a link (could be a button or banner) would give credit to the appropriate site.

That is obviously not a complete idea, but its a thought for consideration, and maybe or maybe not something to build off future discussions. Just another two-cents for the planning stage.

Best,

RuneStar½
ICQ: 3487901
AIM: admiralrunestar
Y!: runic_star
MSN: <ASK - not listed for privacy concerns, namely SPAM>

Dyyryath

11-25-2002, 03:56 PM

Oooh...that piece about getting hardware sites to add DC client benchmarks is a GOOD idea. Let them do the benchmarking, we can collect results in one place...wonder if we could make this fly?

Very nice, Runestar, you're helping already! :cool:

runestar

11-25-2002, 04:57 PM

Then again, I wouldn't mind having some extra machines to play with either... heh... now if only I can get some UPSes to go with those... ;)

The nice thing about keeping the running off-site is that we would lose all the hassles of obtaining the machines, sending them back if needed, licensing benchmarks, software, etc., who is going to handle the machines, what to if they leave, etc. etc. etc....

Incidentally, I'd be willing to work on that area too for those projects I'm familar with. I'm suspecting some of those hardware sites would be willing to do it for a promising promo back to their sites.

Hey, to everybody concerned about sponsorships, just remember, even PBS has sponsors besides "people like you." =)

TTFN,

RuneStar½
~Just another DC fan... ;)

runestar

11-25-2002, 05:02 PM

P.S. Just thought of this... we could have a featured team of the week or month once things get going on... maybe set a cap to the size to give smaller teams a chance at the spotlight.

Anybody who ever started a team knows how hard it can we get a team going and keep it running and growing. Its also a good opportunity for those people looking for a smaller team to join up with away from the hustle and bustle of the large teams.

<clink, clink> That's four cents now for the cause. =) That's good for what, 2 small tootsie rolls?

TTFN,

RuneStar½

DocWardo

11-25-2002, 07:47 PM

Sounds like a great Idea. I'd be willing to help out with whatever I can. I do know some php and database. Of course I can code html etc. I've worked on IRC servers in the past, but it's been awhile. I'm not much of a content generator but I would be willing to help compile and write up some FAQ's assuming others would be willing to contribute questions.

I do hope this helps resolve some of the issues that other teems seem to have with the organization.

runestar

11-28-2002, 04:13 PM

Dyyryath,

Just though I'd let you know as a measure of support, I joined up with the Free-DC teams under SETI and DF. If you see a new member on those teams, that's me. ;)

That'll move you up a couple notches in SETI. And for DF... well, consider the Free-DC team a little closer to that top spot. =)

Best,

RuneStar½