Concerning IRC

[Dyyryath]

So...there appears to be some issues, eh? :)

Let me give you guys the story as I see it, and then we'll figure out what (if anything) needs to be done.

Several days (maybe a week) ago, I got an email from Marc. It was basically a notice that he wanted to make some changes to the IRC network he & DP have been providing for our use. Marc's made no secret of the fact that he'd like to increase his user base in the past. He's pimped the IRC services around here fairly often and has even talked about merging with other like minded IRC groups. This is pretty much more of the same. he'd like to increase the number of users on his system and opening it up to non-DC conversations seems like a good way to start.

I've been even more busy than usual lately so I haven't had time to really get involved with this. I've heard that some of you felt like this notice should have been given to the whole group. Maybe, but I don't think it was meant to be a 'secretive' thing, either. Marc & DP were just letting us (IB & me) know their intentions so that we could take whatever action we thought was appropriate as we're essentially 'in charge' around here. It was just a polite notice and I appreciate that.

So, what to do? Well, one of the great things about me being 'in charge' is that I really feel like this should be as much of a democracy as possible. What works for the majority of our family here at Free-DC is pretty much gonna work for me. With that in mind, I'm gonna put this whole thing to a vote. Basically, we have the following options:

Leave everything like it is. They'll change the name of their network, and they'll encourage people outside of Free-DC & DC in general to come talk. However, we'll just continue pointing irc.free-dc.org to their servers and there'll be some new faces in the lobby.
Stay with DP & Marc, but in our own channel. We continue to point irc.free-dc.org at Marc & DP's servers, but our 'chat' will happen in #freedc or something similar rather than in #lobby.
Setup our own IRC servers. We wish DP & Marc the best of luck with their new IRC network, then setup a couple of new, Free-DC/DC only servers and point irc.free-dc.org at them. This gives us what we already had, only with IB & Dyyryath providing the servers instead of DP & Marc.
Consider merging with someone else. We consider the possibility of merging with another DC oriented IRC group. Possibily kulish or someone else.

Honestly, I don't have a problem with any of these options. Number one is probably my least favorite, but I'd be fine with any of them. However, since I don't get the chance to use IRC nearly as much as some of you, it probably shouldn't be up to me. ;)

So, vote in the poll, and let's get an idea what everyone's thinking. Whatever the will of the majority seems to be, is how we'll proceed.

Anything that needs to be said about this one way or the other (politely, please) should be said in this thread.

[IronBits]

From another thread

Originally posted by cygnussphere
I don't use the irc much. (I did like the addition of the java version)
But' I do appreciate you efforts Marc_1 in providing the form for us.:thumbs:
:cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
I believe the java and cgi-bin version of chat will continue to function, right Marc? We may have to make a few changes to scripts is all...

[Angus]

Marc and DP made it very clear in #lobby last night that they feel that they cannot increase the user base on their IRC network while it associates with the DC community. It apparently drives potential new users away, although they could provide no data to back up that observation.

With that type of hostile attitude toward the DC community, why should an organization like Free-DC that is all about DC continue to maintain their IRC presence on that network?


Rather than abandoning the Free-DC IRC Network name in favor of something else, perhaps a better way to go would have been to start their own network that is in no way associated with DC.

[Chinasaur]

Originally posted by Angus
Marc and DP made it very clear in #lobby last night that they feel that they cannot increase the user base on their IRC network while it associates with the DC community...

With that type of hostile attitude toward the DC community...



:bs:

Umm..there is nothing in the above that is hostile. They have stated the facts for them, that is all.

What we have here is growth. It happens. People may congregate around a given subject initially, but eventually everyone diverges due to other interests. This is human nature and should be expected and "celebrated" (gack!! did I just use that word??) :spray:

Anyway, I'll be voting for keeping irc.free-dc.org pointed towards marc and dp, and switching to #freedc, as it prevents or forstalls further fragmentation. AND, it has the potential (if more IRC users DO login) to get us some new converts.

We are a small enough community of geeks, nerds, misfits (I speak for myself here :jester: :spray: ) and hardware junkies as it is. WHY would we EVER want to make it any smaller by dis-including people simply because they want to make the community bigger?? Any new people who do find us are not going to make our corn flakes go soggier faster, they wont't leave almost empty cartons of milk in our fridge's and they most definately won't set our FSB's lower behind our backs.

Tempest in a teapot perhaps? :sleepy:

:cheers:

[ColinT]

Tempest in a teapot perhaps

I'm grateful to the both of them for providing IRC Services. If they want more users, why would that be a bad thing?

[Angus]

If it's no longer the 'Free-DC IRC Network', and simply Marc and DP's IRC network ( or aknarra or whatever), then why not move the Free-DC channel to a network that has a lot of users, if we are looking for more converts?

There are plenty out there. The reason we were using the 'Free-DC IRC Network' is that it was OUR network, for people interested in the Free-DC distributed computing efforts, and we didn't have a lot of the drive-by IRC undesireables.

I'm sure we could have a channel on hashmark, or any other IRC network. But do you want to deal with that whole side of IRC?

Marc and DP don't want their network associated with DC? Fine, then go elsewhere where DC is tolerated and encouraged.

[Darkness Productions]

Originally posted by Angus
If it's no longer the 'Free-DC IRC Network', and simply Marc and DP's IRC network ( or aknarra or whatever), then why not move the Free-DC channel to a network that has a lot of users, if we are looking for more converts?

Why bother? We've stated repeatedly that we'd love to have you all stick around, have a channel, or whatever. We're not trying to force anyone out, but trying to make some changes.



There are plenty out there. The reason we were using the 'Free-DC IRC Network' is that it was OUR network, for people interested in the Free-DC distributed computing efforts, and we didn't have a lot of the drive-by IRC undesireables.


Actually, the network was never owned by Free-DC. The name was, but the network itself wasn't. Marc volunteered his irc server (which had been in existence long before Free-DC was ever even a glimmer in someone's eye) for Free-DC to use.



I'm sure we could have a channel on hashmark, or any other IRC network. But do you want to deal with that whole side of IRC?


Go for it. You'll find that hashmark is in no way related to DC either. They just happen to have a channel there that is.



Marc and DP don't want their network associated with DC? Fine, then go elsewhere where DC is tolerated and encouraged.

We never said that DC was untolerable, or discouraged. I practice the "art" myself. As did Marc at one time. We condone it's use, as a matter of fact, and love it's possible benefits. We may not agree with every project that comes out, but then, do you?

I'm not going to post to this thread again, for the obvious reasons. But if anyone would like to take it to email, by all means, dp[at]dp[dot]cx.

[Angus]

Originally posted by IronBits
From another thread

I believe the java and cgi-bin version of chat will continue to function, right Marc? We may have to make a few changes to scripts is all...


Evidently not. The CGI client has already been removed.

www.mainetech.net/cgi-bin/irc.cgi page not found

[Marc_1]

Originally posted by Angus
Evidently not. The CGI client has already been removed.

www.mainetech.net/cgi-bin/irc.cgi page not found

*sigh*

all doom and gloom.

I had happened to be making some changes to my virtualhost cgi-bin directories this morning and failed to reset the cgi-bin for mainetech.net.

So fear not, it's not a clandestine attempt to deprive anyone of a cgi-irc interface, just an error on my part, in fact, there should be a newer version up in a few days, at which time I'll inform Dyy or IB so they can make the changes to the links.



Marc

[Moogie]

I think we need to sit back and take a look at this situation before gets completely out of hand.

The fact is (as I see it), Marc owns the sever, so it is his to do with as he chooses.

Now, what does this change really mean? I'm not sure I understand the viewpoint of the opposition, but I may not have all of the informaton.

It seems to me that he is trying to broaden the user base, which is understandable. Given the same situation, I'd most likely do the same. Does it really make that much difference what it is called? I'm not yet convinced that it does.

We have a small enough group as it is. I would think that if we went to a new server, it would just make the numbers smaller. Is that what we really want? I, for one, would love to have more people come in and chat from time to time. Would it really be that bad to form a new channel within Aknarra?

If it is decided to move to a new server, I would still chat on Aknarra, as well as the new one. The fact of the matter is, I've made friends from both sides of the fence and would be sorry to lose them. I would just have more channels open, and more of a chance to continue with my mindless prattle and endless questions of computer related issues. :D (these women from the West Coast..don't they ever shut up?) :p

So it goes.....

Just my .02

[Angus]

Marc may own one server - which became one of the servers that made up the Free-DC IRC Network - he did not own the Network.

Why would you want Free-DC to lose it's IRC identity?

Would you want the web site to change it's name to "www.marc.org"? Perhaps the forum could be the "DP Forum".

And maybe all 12 people that hang out on HIS server can each have one of the team names?

Where will it stop?

[Darkness Productions]

When you stop overreacting.


Originally posted by Angus
Where will it stop?

[Angus]

So here's how it stands now:

Free-DC (the organization) has lost it's Free-DC IRC Network. It ceases to exist. An integral and public part of the organization's identity has been removed.

Now, when visitors to the Free-DC web page or Forum see a link for 'IRC' via irc.free-dc.org, they are hijacked to a network called www.ankarra.net, that has no connection to Free-DC, and wants to distance itself from the name Free-DC in order to garner more users.

So why on earth would Free-DC (the organization) want to continue to have their vistors or team members looking for an IRC experience related to Distributed Computing lured to this alternative site by some bait and switch tactic?

It trashes the credibility of Free DC as it's own entity.


Free-DC should run it's own IRC network under it's own name and control.

Vote for Option 3

[Marc_1]

I have never in my life come across anyone with such an alarmist attitude. I would suspect Angus has deeper issues than this.



Marc and DP made it very clear in #lobby last night that they feel that they cannot increase the user base on their IRC network while it associates with the DC community. It apparently drives potential new users away, although they could provide no data to back up that observation.

With that type of hostile attitude toward the DC community, why should an organization like Free-DC that is all about DC continue to maintain their IRC presence on that network?


No, what was said was that being tied soley to Free-DC wasn't getting us anywhere. What I should have said was trying to maintain a network for a dozen people wasn't cutting the bill anymore. It's quite apparent to some of us that Free-DC isn't going to be the end all and be all of DC like some of us had hoped. Recent talks of "new" things coming down the road haven't done anything to increase users either.

It has absolutely nothing to do with DC or any DC community. Having a two-server IRC network with a dozen users doesn't work. If it was a DC project, you ALL would have dropped it long ago. DC'ers have, and love, their stats, "IRC'ers" have their stats as well, and our aren't looking so good.



I'm sure we could have a channel on hashmark, or any other IRC network. But do you want to deal with that whole side of IRC?

Marc and DP don't want their network associated with DC? Fine, then go elsewhere where DC is tolerated and encouraged.


Again, it's not a matter of liking or disliking DC or any DC commnuity, where or how you ever got that idea is beyond me. I've stated both publicy, and privately, that Free-DC will retain full use of the network, in any manner they see fit.

Go, have a channel on Hashmark, or EFNET, or OpenProject, or whatever, but have fun with "that whole side of IRC". Free-DC wants a channel of their own on Aknarra, fine, hell, Free-DC wants to setup their own network, I'll help whoever set it up, but I won't sit and help maintain it, not for a handful of users.



Why would you want Free-DC to lose it's IRC identity?


What exactly are they losing? So IRC is now being hosted by another network, gee, thats horrible. Seems that kind of thing happens ALL OVER IRC NETWORKS. How can Free-DC, a website of it's own, with a forum of now over 1000 members, lose it's identity over a change in IRC network that used by about a grand total of maybe 8 users?? I might be streching it a bit at 8, it's more likely 6. Six. SIX.



Free-DC (the organization) has lost it's Free-DC IRC Network. It ceases to exist. An integral and public part of the organization's identity has been removed.

Now, when visitors to the Free-DC web page or Forum see a link for 'IRC' via irc.free-dc.org, they are hijacked to a network called www.ankarra.net, that has no connection to Free-DC, and wants to distance itself from the name Free-DC in order to garner more users.

So why on earth would Free-DC (the organization) want to continue to have their vistors or team members looking for an IRC experience related to Distributed Computing lured to this alternative site by some bait and switch tactic?

It trashes the credibility of Free DC as it's own entity.


Free-DC should run it's own IRC network under it's own name and control.


More alarmist attitude. Angus, listen. What do you hear? Thats right, you're alone. That sound you hear is you're own ego crushing logic under it's own girth.

Why is it no one but you really seems to have an issue with this? Why have you, someone who has obviously, and vocally, had issue with me in the past, choosen this as your "Last Crusade"? Has anyone else packed up their "toys" and stopped producing for Free-DC, as you seem to have, again?


My support for Free-DC has always been one my first priorities, and has involved alot of my time and effort, for little or no return. I don't see this changing anytime soon. As I have said, Free-DC retains full use of the IRC Network, if Free-DC so desires, in a manner they desire. Angus, through your anger can you see the poll results? Can you see anyone else being as vocal in this thread about the issue as you are?

In the end, I'll abide by the results of the poll, and the decree of the users, and I fully expect Free-DC and the users to do the same. You want your own network, fine, go start one, want your own channel, fine, go start one, whether it be on Aknarra or not.
I will not however tolerate further abuse of my network, it's services, or connected systems. Multiple CGI:IRC sessions do nothing but create lag, slow things down, and, more importantly, piss me off. You have something to say, say it, email me if you choose, register ihatemarc.com and flame away if it makes you feel better. You want to start #freedc on Aknarra and bash me until sunset everday, I don't care, but keep it out of the #Lobby. I've been more than fair in this so far, I've not used my "power" to kick, kline or silence any talk of this, but enough is enough. Grow up, or get out. My patience with you and your attitude is wearing thin.


When, and if, Free-DC wants to setup their own channel I'll be available should anyone want help registering the channel with services, or any other issues or help that may be needed.


Thank you for your time,

Marc

[IronBits]

Morning Marc, appreciate your services bud!
Can we go ahead and create the channel #Free-DC?
Looking at the poll, it seems the majority of our family prefer this.
I would like to use Free-DC rather than freedc if possible.
Thanks for all that you do, mostly always in the background, unseen by most. :notworthy
:cheers: <--- that's a rootbeer :D

[Angus]

If that's the way the Free-DC admins want it, then one of you should register the channel, so it's not 'owned' by Marc, and you will maintain some semblance of control over the channel.

[Marc_1]

Originally posted by IronBits
Morning Marc, appreciate your services bud!
Can we go ahead and create the channel #Free-DC?
Looking at the poll, it seems the majority of our family prefer this.
I would like to use Free-DC rather than freedc if possible.
Thanks for all that you do, mostly always in the background, unseen by most. :notworthy
:cheers: <--- that's a rootbeer :D

Morning ;)

If it's been determined that the current results stand, then I don't have a problem with the creation of #free-dc, I will however need someone to register it. If I do it, then I will be the founder and admin of the channel, while I don't have an issue with this, as I am most familar with services, other may not be comfortable with that. I can register it for now and set things up, then pass the torch on to whoever.

And thanks, Free-DC hasn't lost me, nor will they likely.

Marc

[Angus]

If that's the way the Free-DC admins want it, then one of you should register the channel, so it's not 'owned' by Marc, and you will maintain some semblance of control over the channel.

[IronBits]

Thanks Marc, yes please... thanks for setting me up as Founder and Owner, this is great. Thank you :)