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IronBits
03-03-2004, 06:13 PM
Ok, here's the problem...

I need to have 2 other locations around the house setup for networking without the long network cable physical connection...

I currently have DSL with an SMC 8-port firewall/router, then cables going all over the place to provide connectivity to other switches, computers and printers.

I want to do this up right the first time around and all that it entails like security, SPEED, future proofing (ya right!) compatability etc.

I figure I need to buy 3 Wi-Fi routers/hubs/firewalls, then I can branch to NIC cards and cables from each of them.???

I just don't even have the foggiest, so help a fella out here would ya?

What's someone gotta do? Of course, makes models and prices are a plus!
Distances are about 25', with one of em thru 2" concrete floor to the garage.

Cost amount $$$ not too much of a concern if for good reasons...

MerePeer
03-03-2004, 07:10 PM
The simplest approach would be one wireless router, located and net-wired to your SMC, then for the garage etc PCs each install wireless USB or NIC access points. However if your garage is going to have lots of boxen, then the cost of all those points vs. using your existing switches might be better to go with your thinking of having a wireless 'drop' in the garage but using wires, hubs, and switches within the garage. Further, you need to consider the limited rate of data transfer using wireless -> its not the 100MBS you can get with your wired connections. So intra-garage would be fastest if wired.

In order to have a wireless 'drop' that wired computers can plug into...I don't think (but perhaps some do) that normal wireless routers can serve as both receiver of wireless signals (which is their purpose) as well as being a client to a separate wireless router back next to your SMC. However a quick search of the D-link (likely same for Linksys and Netgear) site looks like they have this type of dual-purpose unit http://www.d-link.com/products/?pid=292 . Not sure about the price tho.

One of your first decisions needs to be which protocol: G or B (or A). You can google for in-depth comparisons but the major factors are: B is cheaper for each piece you need but B is slower. Unfortunately both B and G use the 2.4G frequency that many cordless house phones do -- so our house has some 'clicking noises' when using those phones within 15 ft of the router and the wireless Pc.
I will also note that I find it frustrating to copy 3 GB files (30 mins of tv show) up to the wireless-PC because (using B here) of the 8MBS throughput when I am used to 100MBS for the wired ones.
Also -- I think I've read that if a G router has to handle both G and B activity, then it isn't going to do so at G speeds.


There's also a new superG I'm not sure what that is yet.

Here's some specials this week at Bestbuy to give you an idea of price of B vs G etc.
http://bestbuy.dailyshopper.com/index.aspx?pagename=circularlarge&zipcode=21401&storeid=1030060&batchid=158457&pagenumber=13&uniqueid=2829948

matrix_fan
03-03-2004, 07:16 PM
I have a USR8022, very nice in my opinion. No problems yet. Have had for about 6 months or more. They do not sell it any more but i would recomend http://www.newegg.com/app/viewProductdesc.asp?description=33-135-004&depa=0 , only $77 for 1 with shipping. This model includes 802.11B and G, 256-bit WEP + WPA for future. Most other brnads only include 128-bit WEP. 4 LAN ports, and on mine it has a ok range and quality so i bet this is the same ;) If you needed a certain area to have a printer i'd choose http://www.newegg.com/app/viewProductdesc.asp?description=33-127-132&depa=0 , for $153. Now if you're going to go with just 802.11B i'd go with http://www.newegg.com/app/viewProductdesc.asp?description=33-127-024&depa=0 . also just for you know, some wireless routers have software that supposely speeds up the transfer speeds( i have one such router is rated for 22MBps, but has software that is supposed to make it do 54Mbps...)

IronBits
03-03-2004, 08:19 PM
Thanks for the feedback, here are the floor plans



Here are the 3 floors I need networking on, without physical wires to each location.
|------------------------------------|
| |
| |
| |
| |
| Garage |
| |
| |
| |
| |
| [WiFi] |
|------------------------------------|

|------------------------------------|
| [dsl]|
| [WiFi]|
| |
| |
| 1st floor |
| |
| |
| |
| |
|[WiFi] |
|------------------------------------|

|------------------------------------|
| [WiFi] |
| |
| |
| |
| |
| 2nd floor |
| |
| |
| |
| |
|------------------------------------|

IronBits
03-03-2004, 08:27 PM
This looks promising for making a stanard hub/switch become wireless eh ?
http://www.d-link.com/products/?model=DWL-810

matrix_fan
03-03-2004, 09:00 PM
even though you coudl do that, i REALLY think it'd be alot better to get at least 1 wireless router to hook up from the cable/dsl modem. It's just simplerer

MerePeer
03-03-2004, 09:12 PM
I wouldnt go with that (810) unit for these reasons:

1) its B, not G
2) its about $80(?)
3) the DWL-2000AP (not same link as my earlier post, this one no snmp) ( http://www.d-link.com/products/?pid=10 ) appears to offer more functionality and is faster and is cheaper ($69 after rebate =
http://www.shipitforyou.com/rebates/rebateforms/dlinkrebate4086.pdf )

But I'd also look over netgear.com and linksys.com and weekly specials.

matrix_fan
03-03-2004, 09:14 PM
I'd buy 1 router, and wire 2 access point to each floor:

do you need printer access on the floor with DSL?

IronBits
03-03-2004, 09:22 PM
No, I have a print server for that ;)

matrix_fan
03-03-2004, 09:25 PM
do you need them to be fast or just connect? If you just want them to connect, i'd go with 802.11b, if you want them to be fast and connect, go with 802.11g. And if you decide to go with 802.11g here are ( in my opinion) the best 2 options:

1st: buy three of these nice baby's: http://www.newegg.com/app/viewProductdesc.asp?description=33-135-004&depa=0

2nd: buy one of these: http://www.newegg.com/app/viewProductdesc.asp?description=33-135-004&depa=0 , and 2 access points, not sure which ones at this point, but i'll post later after i check them out, the access points seem to actually beleive it or nto be ALOT higher, so i WOULD NOT recemend this solution

*EDIT*
some information about us robotics routers: http://www.usr.com/double2.asp As read on the webpage you can use both 802.11b and 802.11g at the same time at the 2 different speeds, it does not have to slow down for the 802.11b clients


After you decide which plan you plan to buy the routers/and or acess point, tell us which one you choose so we will know which cards for which computer? Are any of them laptops? Do you laready have wireless crads and stuff? etc.

I'm glad to be of ANY help at all :-D...

rofn
03-04-2004, 12:59 AM
aaahm...please...no D-Link...it's just crap...i once installed a wireless lan for my girlfriends dad with a hole bunch of access points and routers...distance was always about max. 15 meters....i brought all the stuff 6 times back to the shop cause it wasn't working...one even didn't power on, 2 times i had no web interface to configure it and about 3 times all my clients didn't find an access point...after 6 times getting the whole crap back to the shop i switched all the hardware to 3com....no problems since then...

anyway...


Originally posted by IronBits
I want to do this up right the first time around and all that it entails like security, SPEED, future proofing (ya right!) compatability etc.


i would say when you want security don't go wireless...even when theres encryption, i'm not convinced on that...i think the old style wires are the safest method...but thats just my oppinion...

i know all the wiring is :bang:

but if i were you and want to build a fast, secure and future proofing network i would go for a gigabit solution...

greets
rofn

matrix_fan
03-04-2004, 01:17 AM
yes, the WEP keys are not hard to decrypt, but the chances of someone trying to decrypt them are slim. PLUS, with US Robotics includes 256-bit which is double what normal wireless unites provide. AND, there's the new WPA security which is supposed to be ALOT better, i thinkit comes with almost ALL 802.11g. Long as you set the mac addresses, the WEP or WPA, ur pretty much secure....i know mine is....

*EDIT* If i am correct i think 3com is US robotics, i think USR bought 3com or visa versa. I could be WAYYY OFF. One other thing. The router i recemended is also a access point, all you have to do is to disable the router function


*NEW* Buy all 3 routers from computers4sure. 74.95, and free shipping. You can only get one $20 mail-in rebate per household so one willl be 54.95. That's a price you can't beat!

Scoofy12
03-04-2004, 03:54 PM
a few points.

first, security. you definitely want WPA, at least if you want to keep this for a while, if you have neighbors, and if you generate a lot of traffic (AirSnort (http://airsnort.shmoo.com) can crack a WEP key with about 4 million packets). WPA is required for Wi-Fi certification as of Q3 or Q4 2003, i believe, but check for the "Wi-Fi Protected Access" checkbox on the Wi-Fi approval section of the box. You can use WPA-PSK mode.

Second, about a/b/g, if speed is a concern you probably want a or g. b and g share the 2.4 GHz band with microwaves, phones, and various other networking/communication devices, so there will be more interference than in the 5GHz band used by a, although a might have less range. i'm not sure about that.

Third, about network design.
Beware the difference between access point and bridge. An AP allows wireless clients to connect to it and get on the wired network. A bridge is a client device (like a PCI or PC card) that will bridge a wired segment onto an access point. So, you probably need one access point, which you would put on your primary wired segment (by the DSL im guessing). It needn't be a router unless you plan on having separate subnets. Then you can use a bridge for each other floor and just hook them up to your existing switches. This will keep the number of clients (and thus, interference and bandwidth sharing) to a minimum.

matrix_fan
03-04-2004, 06:49 PM
BUT, 2 access points and 1 router would work. And bridges are just plain outright expensive..... (for 802.11g). And AP's are for extending wired/and or wireless networks!!!
http://free-dc.yatta-yatta-yatta.net/100mbnetwork.gif


Hey IB, have u decided yet?

IronBits
03-04-2004, 07:01 PM
No, not yet... still reading and listening :)

matrix_fan
03-04-2004, 07:07 PM
hehe, ya, i mean i would love the idea of bridging it's just so dang expensive... Check this out: http://www.usr.com/download/datasheets/networking/8054/8054-ds.pdf

matrix_fan
03-04-2004, 07:48 PM
My friend think you should just try a access point/or router with built in access point on the middle floor, and see if signal strength is good, if not buy another..

IronBits
03-06-2004, 02:46 AM
Ok, finally decided to get my feet wet with 2 of these at NewEgg ;)

U.S. Robotics Wireless Turbo Router with 4-Port Switch, Model USR8054
Specifications:
Standards: IEEE 802.3, IEEE 802.3u, IEEE 802.11b, IEEE 802.11g
Data rate: Up to 54Mbps
Wireless Operating Range: Not specified
Security: 64/128/256-bit WEP; WPA-Wi-Fi Protected Access*
Ports: One 10/100 Mbps WAN port; Four 10/100 Mbps Ethernet LAN ports
Dimensions: 9.19 (L) x 5.5 (W) x 1.7 (D) N82E16833135004 $72.00

Looks to have everything I need to pull this off.
The garage being the only concern with the most interference to get thru. If it doesn't work, I can always use it up here and give up on the garage for now .

matrix_fan
03-06-2004, 10:31 AM
do you already have the wireless pci cards for each computer??(or usb adapters/pcmcia crads)

IronBits
03-06-2004, 12:59 PM
No no, the PCs will stay with NICs/switches.
Just going to use them to get to remote places to set up more networking with wires and 10/100 switches.