um?

[FoBoT]

so is there a free-DC gimps team or not?

i tried the linky to the project area and it took me to a page for team prime rib, which is the Ars team :confused:

[FoBoT]

after reading the FAQ on the primenet site, it seems to me that this project doesn't really support teams, at least not the way others do

looks like you just "share" an account with other people
i can't like that :/

guess i'll let this P4 finish its current work and then drop gimps again, i realized i had done this back in february :rolleyes:

[whilden@ars]

From Ironbits "Team Prime Rib team members are made up from all kinds of sites already and meets with what Free-DC is all about, don't you think? I support Xyzzy and TPR." :cheers:

About the teams issue, if you take a look around teamprimerib.com (after the site gets back up an running(was hacked)) you can see how our stats gods have broken down production per person. We also have overtake reports etc, your p4's are more then welcomed and all work that has been done could/if wanted be moved to the TPR account. TPR has more stats then most other DC projects, and ofcourse the best group of people.

[Beyond]

me takes a look at GIMPS...;)

[IronBits]

If ya got P4s, or Intel anything with 512kb or more L2 cache, they can certainly use the help right now. ;)
Stop in over here http://www.mersenneforum.org and say hi :)

[PCZ]

Obviously it's more important to help out the opposition than the Free-DC DF team.

[Beyond]

Hmmm...I fail to see how joining the mersenneforum helps us here at Free-DC. :confused: Is there something I'm missing, perhaps I need to read all the threads in this forum a little closer. :dunno:



:bang: :bang: D'oh, now I see what you meant by the opposition, we are supporting the ARS' team? :shocked: :haddock: :swear: :rolleyes:

[IronBits]

It is not an 'Ars Team' - it's made up of many members from different teams from all around the globe.
We have no Team in Gimps.
We decided very early on we would not create our own team but instead join their efforts.
Read some of the very first posts in this section to catch up or learn more.
It's all rather vague to me now... maybe Dyyryath would lend us some history lessons ;)

But ya, put them on DF :Pokes: :D

[Beyond]

http://teamprimerib.com/img/tprtop.jpg


...umm, funny how that logo on the top left side looks like it has ARS spelled out on it. :(

Anyway, I was just looking for projects with little to no representation from our team that I could run to help our overall score in the DC Repository (http://www.msu.edu/~bercikda/rank_overall.html), and GIMPS looked to be an obvious choice for all the number crunching, math nuts amoungst us.

[IronBits]

Chessbrain could use some help, SOB could use some help before it ends /me shrugs

Ya like numbers eh? RC5 :moon:

[Beyond]

I'll probably throw some on Chessbrain again.....what about this Euler2000 project I see we have a team on the scoreboard, but nothing on the forum (that I can find) about joining the team ect...Just by looking at the (limited) stats available it seems to me it would be easy to move up the ranks quickly. :)

[PCZ]

I say let em get beaten by CurtisC
Why should we bail them out ?

[IronBits]

Originally posted by Beyond
I'll probably throw some on Chessbrain again.....what about this Euler2000 project I see we have a team on the scoreboard, but nothing on the forum (that I can find) about joining the team ect...Just by looking at the (limited) stats available it seems to me it would be easy to move up the ranks quickly. :) Good!
I like my peanut butter thick ;)
We are getting spread out pretty thin now as it is...
we don't want to lose our lead in DF, which is our main project...

[alpha]

Originally posted by IronBits
Ya like numbers eh? RC5 :moon:

I'd just like to point out that RC5-72 is a waste of time.

I know, that is a very controversial thing to say on a public forum but these forums are far too quiet. Plus it is true :)

[PCZ]

Alpha

I have to agree with you.
Most number crunching projects are a complete waste of CPU time.

Where is the benefit to mankind in cracking one sentence encrypted with a 72bit
key.

[alpha]

PCZ, I was actually referring to the fact that the chances of the RC5-72 project being completed in a reasonable amount of time are miniscule. But I do see where you are coming from.

[willy1]

Even after reading this thread, I'm still confused over the team issue on this project, and it doesn't appear that the other two threads in this forum section have any bearing on the question ??????

Is there a link somewhere to this Team Prime Rib that would provide more info?


As always...

willy1


edit: Google found this site (http://www.teamprimerib.com/rr1/) which also seems to indicate that Team Prime Rib is an ARS-TECHINA team.

edit #2: and it appears that ARTS-TECHINA gets number 1 credit on the DC Repository in both GIMPS and SOB based on the TeamPrimeRib standing. IF it's truly not an "ARTS" team, then is this not incorrect?

[ECL]

Willy1, you're right. TPR is an Ars Technica team which participates in Gimps and SOB. We have an SOB team of our own. There are Free-DC members crunching for the Ars Gimps team, some because they were already there before Free-DC was formed and others because they wanted to be on the #1 team instead of struggling to climb from the bottom. I guess nobody's really pressed the issue for a couple of years -- there's no shortage of other projects.

This is one of our thornier team issues. Do we create our own team and have an identity on Gimps? Or do we just crunch for some other team?

A Free-DC Gimps team starting out now would rank low in the Repository, and barely register at all on the overall Gimps rankings. We don't have the firepower available to make that much headway on our own, but we probably also couldn't help save TPR from Curtisc, even if more of us were willing to crunch under their banner.

Free-DC pretty much settled for being TPR's reserve team back in the early days, but since then we've become a force to be reckoned with in the DC world and it may be time to revisit the question of whether helping Ars is in our best interests. Given the low (and declining) activity rates on most projects, it would appear that the pool of available DC enthusiasts is shrinking. I'd hate to see us push away anyone because of a decision made two+ years ago.

Even though I ditched Gimps long ago, I suppose it wouldn't hurt Free-DC to have a foothold over there. Even a small team can find a prime, and this would give Free-DC members a choice about which Gimps team to support. That choice is kind of what Free-DC is about. Nobody has to crunch for Free-DC, but if they want to, we should support them.

[willy1]

Does GIMPS allow the crunchers to take their points (WUs ?) with them? Would that give a Free-DC team an initial boost, instead of starting at absolute 0?

Maybe that would be politically unwise move, based on the history...


BTW, thanks for the history lesson.


willy1

[MereMortal]

willy1 (since you e-mailed me),

The following is my stance on this topic for the DC Repository. With all due respect to IronBits, I regard TPR as an Ars team; they claim it as their own in their posted standings, and it follows with their naming scheme.

The fact that members from other teams are on that team is irrelevant. If you are silly enough ;) to crunch under another team's banner, don't expect to come to me post facto, complain about it, and try to make it my problem. All you're likely to get out of me is a chuckle.

I made it a policy when I started out that if listed teams combined in a project under one or the other team's name, only that team whose name is used would receive credit. Seems like a reasonable thing to me...

[willy1]

MereMortal -

Thank You for the clarification of your position on TeamPrimeRib. I hope my email wasn't taken as a complaint, but as a request for information from the operator of the DC Repository, in light of the opinions expressed elsewhere in this thread.


To recap:

Evidently, from the responses here, TeamPrimeRib has evolved from a cross-organizational GIMPS team to simply one of the ARS-TECHINA DC teams.

With that opinion reinforced by others, it seems as though if Free-DC wanted to make their own presence in GIMPS, from an organizational point of view there would be no objections. Individual GIMPS crunchers would have to decide whether to stay with TeamPrimeRib or not.

Would that make any (significant) impact on the Free-DC standing in the DC Repository?


willy1


(Perhaps I should just return to watching the effects of increased CO2 on the temperature and rainfall of our planet, and leave the team inter-relationship topics alone.)

[magnav0x]

willy1, the reason I never ran GIMPS is because we had no team created there. If you were to create one I would put a box on :D I think it would be healthy for Free-DC as a whole if we created our own team. That would attract others from the team to try out GIMPS (those like me, not willing to crunch another team's banner)

[FoBoT]

the evolution of this thread is interesting

:bath:

[Beyond]

Originally posted by willy1
Does GIMPS allow the crunchers to take their points (WUs ?) with them? Would that give a Free-DC team an initial boost, instead of starting at absolute 0?

Maybe that would be politically unwise move, based on the history...


BTW, thanks for the history lesson.


willy1

The only way to move units is if you crunched on your own (not on a team), then changed your account (name and password) to reflect the "new" team account info.

I too, would be willing to add a machine or 2 a Free-DC team if created. Starting out "low" in the stats should not be a problem for the team, 4-5 P4's crunching DoubleChecks for a month will allow the team to show up in the DC repository stats. :)

[rsbriggs]

Count me in for a p4. So, who is going to create a Free-DC team and tell us all how to join it?

[willy1]

I can add a couple of P4s as well.


I believe there are a couple of types of crunching available in GIMPS. Does anyone know which are which, and what's the best for certain types of CPUs?

[rshepard]

I don't know if there is a processor advantage between the assignment types. Basically you have 3 choices:
1. Lucas-Lehmer tests- these are the most time consuming, but are capable of discovering a new prime number.
2. Trial factoring- this runs a faster set of tests; which can eliminate candidates from the testing list, but cannot prove primality like an LL test.
3. Double Checking- a fast set of tests to double-check LL-tests that return a negative result. In principle, you could find a prime with these, (due to a glitch in the original mavhine's run), but it isn't very likely.

[willy1]

Perhaps one of the Free-DC leaders could create the team. since it seems to require a stabile presence to be the team owner.

PrimeNet FAQ (http://mersenne.org/ips/faq.html#change_id)

Also, from reading the TeamPrimeRib FAQ (http://www.teamprimerib.com/faq/gimps.Windows.Install.php) , the team name and password is used by all the members, with individual accounts controlled (identified) at the machine level.
Example:
Team Name = FREE-DC
Password = FDC
MachineID = willy1_P4

It also has a quite nice guide for setting up the client.


This GIMPS site (http://mersenne.org/freesoft.htm) would appear to be the place to download the client software.

[Beyond]

Now would be a good time as the P4's(which kick ass on this project) running Windows are no better than glorified doorstops as far as SOB is concerned at the moment. :D

[magnav0x]

I have a P4 waiting for team creation as well

[rsbriggs]

OK - I built a GIMPS FreeDC team.

Team ID: FreeDC
Team Password: go-4-it
My comp ID: rsbriggs

Downloading instructions:
http://www.mersenne.org/freesoft.htm

[rshepard]

From the FAQ

If you are the team leader, you should 'lock' the account by adding LockUserInfo=1 to the prime.ini file. When this update is sent to PrimeNet, nobody will be able to transfer the account or change the email address and contact person info, unless you email woltman@alum.mit.edu and request it.

If you set this lock, I think you could go public with the passwd, since the account is locked unless you e-mail Mr Woltman.

[alpha]

Shouldn't the team name be "Free-DC" since that is the name of the team? :)

I think the only places we don't use the hyphen are projects that don't or didn't support special characters (SoB).

[rsbriggs]

Then someone else will need to create that - it won't permit me to change the name or create another using my email address.

[rshepard]

It wouldn't let me create it with a hyphen...

[Beyond]

2 things, first the DC Repository only tracks LL stats/standings in the ranks, second for those wanting to see semi-quick statistics doublechecks are the units to crunch. P4's should finish 3-4 doublechecks per week, first time LL Test have a greater chance of finding a prime, but can take weeks to finish (depending on the range exponents) and last M33's a month or more on the fastest of P4's, but achance at finding a 10 million digit prime and "winning" prize money.

[alpha]

Oh well. Doesn't really matter, but consistency in our team name would be nice. If it isn't possible there isn't much you can do though, eh? :)

I could probably throw something on this if there was some work I could do that wouldn't take particularly long. I don't like devoting myself to months of crunching on one project alone. I don't have any intel boxen though, how do AMD CPUs perform in comparison?

As many of the above have posted, I will agree that it would be preferrable to be independant of Ars, even if we are starting from scratch.

[rshepard]

I think I'll throw in on this one, if we can get the passwd posted or PM'd.
Haven't run this in ages.... I think the exponents being tested last time I fired it up were in the 6,000,000-8,000,000 range :rotfl:

[rsbriggs]

Team ID: FreeDC
Team Password: go-4-it

Downloading instructions:
http://www.mersenne.org/freesoft.htm

Looks like they have about tripled since you last checked - I'm doing M19792189

[Beyond]

The only monitering app I am aware of for gimps is DCMonitor (http://www.bluetentacle.co.uk/dcmonitor/) only draw back is that it shows "unknown" status during P-1 testing.

[Supp]

One notebook of mine, P4 by chance, is collecting dust in closet, I'll fire it up :)

Anybody else :Pokes: ?

[EDIT] Hm...what about adding it to Front Page Rankings ?

[rsbriggs]

We've had quite a turn out so far - 16 boxen!



Intel Pentium II I : 3
AMD Athlon : 1
Intel Celeron : 1
Unspecified type : 4
---------------------- -------
TOTAL, uniquely named : 16


How do you set the CPU type? My P4 shows as being "unspecified type".

Team info is here (http://mersenne.org/cgi-bin/primenet_report.pl?UserID=FreeDC&UserPW=go-4-it)

[Beyond]

Originally posted by rsbriggs
We've had quite a turn out so far - 16 boxen!



Intel Pentium II I : 3
AMD Athlon : 1
Intel Celeron : 1
Unspecified type : 4
---------------------- -------
TOTAL, uniquely named : 16


How do you set the CPU type? My P4 shows as being "unspecified type".

Team info is here (http://mersenne.org/cgi-bin/primenet_report.pl?UserID=FreeDC&UserPW=go-4-it)

You don't, the client does it automagically (there is a problem with reading the processor info on some P4's, nothing to worry about, all unspecified are P4's).

[magnav0x]

Not sure if I got it set up right, but I added my P4. BTW where is the statistics page for FreeDC? I can't seem to find it at www.mersenne.org

[willy1]

Magnav0x -

You're showing in the stats. rsbriggs posted a stats link (http://mersenne.org/cgi-bin/primenet_report.pl?UserID=FreeDC&UserPW=go-4-it) a couple of posts back.

[magnav0x]

I don't know if there is a processor advantage between the assignment types. Basically you have 3 choices:

How exactly do we choose between the 3 choices? I didn't see any way to do this in the client.

[rshepard]

TEST MENU
---------

The PrimeNet menu choice lets you configure the type of work you get
from the server. The "Use PrimeNet..." option can be turned on to
switch from the manual method to the automatic method.
The "Request whatever..." box should be left checked. However, if you
are running a slow computer and don't mind waiting several months for
a single Lucas-Lehmer test to complete OR you are running a faster
computer and would rather do factoring, then uncheck this box and
choose a different type of work to do. The "Always have at least
this many days of work queued up" value should be changed based on
how often you connect to the Internet. As long as you connect at least
once in the given time period, mprime will have an uninterrupted stream
of work. However, the program will not checkout more than 20 exponents
no matter what this value is set at.

[magnav0x]

Is there a scoring difference between these units. I mean, are you going to get more movement in the rank from running a double-check rather than factoring a prime? Rank is determined by CPU time right?

[magnav0x]

I know some people are against crunching GIMPS for ourself, because they think it's useless, but here is my reasoning in crunching GIMPS for Free-DC.

Our mathmatics 2 in DC Repository stinks! You may think it's pointless to be last place in GIMPS. In all actuality it hurts us more to not participate in the project at all.

Taken from the DC Repository FAQ:


The number below the official rank is the local percentage of work (LPW) completed. Black text indicates no change from the previous day, green text indicates an increase and red text indicates a decrease. The LPW is calculated by taking the ratio between the team's "WU's" for the project and the sum of all DC Repo teams' "WU's" for the project and scaling by 100. A project "WU" is the measure used to rank teams. Note that this may or may not be a "work unit".

As you can see, even being last place in rankings would help us more than not having a ranking at all. My goal with GIMPS is not to move free-dc to the top of the project. We all know that would take a very long time and large ammount of resources.

[rsbriggs]

The only question is, do they consider "Free-DC" (used for most projects) and "FreeDC" (used for the math projects, like SOB and GIMPS) to be the same team?

[magnav0x]

I already e-mailed the guy at DC Repository stating our team name would be different in GIMPS

[rshepard]

Is there a scoring difference between these units. I mean, are you going to get more movement in the rank from running a double-check rather than factoring a prime? Rank is determined by CPU time right?

LL tests get more credit, because of the difference in CPU time required. You'll get results"on the board" quicker with factoring tests, but they aren't worth as much individually as an LL test (the exact ratio escapes me at the moment)

[magnav0x]

Which one is LL? I see:

Request 10,000,000 digit numbers to test
Request Mersenne numbers to run priliminary test
Request Mersenne numbers to double check
Request Mersenne numbers to factor

[rshepard]

I'm not at my Windows box, but are you sure that second item isn't "primality test"? if so , that's the LL test. The 10,000,000 digit is also LL, but is a looooooooooong run.

[magnav0x]

That's all I have to choose from. This is the beta client that was recently released.

[rshepard]

The second choice is the LL test-- I remoted to one of my boxes at work and confirmed that is correct.

[magnav0x]

Ok, thanks a lot :D

[Beyond]

Originally posted by magnav0x
Is there a scoring difference between these units. I mean, are you going to get more movement in the rank from running a double-check rather than factoring a prime? Rank is determined by CPU time right?

Workunit selection is done here.
http://24.174.34.241:8080/images/4.jpg


10,000,000 digit to test are hugh compared to the standard LL Test, but could concievable win you some serious money.

Primality testing gives you the best chance of finding a prime and is the default workunit assigned to machines above 500MHz

DoubleChecks are just that, verifing runs on 1st time primaly test.

Factoring test are used to eliminate any exponent's from the much longer primatlity testing ( sieving more or less :) )

[ECL]

So now that you're off and rolling, and FreeDC is ranked 30024, don't you think it's time to suck up to Beth133? He's ranked 36. A combination would place FreeDC at 36th in the project (with a fair shot at 35 or 34), and second in Gimps in the DC Repository. That would raise FreeDC's Math2 score a bit, methinks.

There may be other FreeDC-friendly types wandering around between 36 and 30024.

[magnav0x]

So now that you're off and rolling, and FreeDC is ranked 30024, don't you think it's time to suck up to Beth133? He's ranked 36. A combination would place FreeDC at 36th in the project (with a fair shot at 35 or 34), and second in Gimps in the DC Repository. That would raise FreeDC's Math2 score a bit, methinks.

Wow, wouldn't that be a big turn of events

I wouldn't even know how to go about contacting him though :(

[rsbriggs]

Where are you coming up with the 300024 place number? I couldn't find us on the stats list which cut off in the 29,000's...

[magnav0x]

Yes I wish I was able to find out where exactly we can find our ranking at any given time.

[rshepard]

You can use this:
http://mersenne.org/cgi-bin/primenet_user.pl?UserID=FreeDC

[rsbriggs]

Ahh - that works. I suspect that we'll be moving up somewhat in the list shortly...

[rshepard]

looks like 4-6 days for the first results to start hitting-- after that they are nicely distributed, with results coming in every few days.

[magnav0x]

I found another link that shows ALL teams. If anyone is interested I could whip up a script that would keep track of our progress, overtake dates, etc. I don't know how fun they would be to watch, with such slow return rates though. I don't think I would include individual machines in the stats, just the team a whole. Up to you guys.


http://mersenne.org/ips/topproducers.shtml

[rsbriggs]

Looks to me like Team_Prime_Rib and TeamPrimeRib appear as separate teams, one at # 1, the other at 3,000 something.

We're in a thousand-way tie for 30025th place.....

It would be nice to track the upward progress for a while - we should be able to move up thousands of places quite rapidly, at least at the beginning.

[rsbriggs]

Hokey-smokes Batman! We've doubled again since yesterday.
(Where'd NineBall GET all those boxen?)


Lucas-Lehmer testing : 26
Factoring only : 20
Double-checking LL : 13
---------------------- -------
TOTAL : 59

[PCZ]

Did it matter what tests you do ?

Do all the points show up in the same database or is there 3 different stats.
It's a bit confusing.

[rshepard]

The "overall production" is scored like so:


Results are credited first by Lucas-Lehmer CPU time, then by factoring CPU time, next the number of exponents for which a factor was found, and finally by the number of exponents Lucas-Lehmer tested

They also maintain a database ranked just by factoring but it is of less interest than the overall production.

[willy1]

Originally posted by rsbriggs
Hokey-smokes Batman! We've doubled again since yesterday.
(Where'd NineBall GET all those boxen?)


Lucas-Lehmer testing : 26
Factoring only : 20
Double-checking LL : 13
---------------------- -------
TOTAL : 59

Not really -

That's the number of exponents assigned, not number of boxen. It looks like some people downloaded a couple of months's work for each box.


------- Machines Assigned to PrimeNet -------

Intel Pentium III : 17
AMD Athlon : 2
Intel Celeron : 2
Unspecified type : 8
---------------------- -------
TOTAL, uniquely named : 29



Of course, I presume someone could name all their boxes the same....


In any case, good work !!!! It will be nice to see the team rise through the standings as the work starts to be returned.

[MickFoley]

Welcome to the show, glad to see you are getting some people interested allready.


:cheers: heres to you guys joing in on the fun with us.

MickFoley
Team Prime Rib (http://www.teamprimerib.com)

[Darkness Productions]

Just as an FYI, I've tossed my work machine (p3 500) in the fray. Not much, but like they say over at Ars, every box counts.

[Beyond]

Originally posted by Darkness Productions
Just as an FYI, I've tossed my work machine (p3 500) in the fray. Not much, but like they say over at Ars, every box counts.

Thanks DP, any and all machines, users, crunchers welcomed! :thumbs:

[ECL]

I would be derelict in my traditional role of wet blanket if I didn't mention this, but those of you who started crunching Gimps in order to improve our standing in the DC Repository and are factoring are wasting your time. Gimps has two measurements, LL P90 years and Factoring P90 years. Meremortal is only counting LL P90 years, which is why Free-DC is not yet even on the board over there.

On the other hand, if you're crunching Gimps factors for the sheer industrial hell of it, then carry on as you were. Nothing to see here. Go about your business.

Perhaps Meremortal could be prevailed upon to either add a Gimps Factoring category, or add the two numbers together for a combined score.

[FoBoT]

so what choice on the gimps setup do we select to contribute to

LL P90 years

?

how do i tell my box to not do "factoring " (the thing that won't contribute or whatever)

[rshepard]

Select Test==>Primenet and uncheck the "request whatever work makes sense" box, then check anything EXCEPT "Request Mersenne numbers to factor"

[magnav0x]

21544. FreeDC 0.678 1 0.996 2 2443.94


Finaly some headway

First LL test recieved apparently

[rshepard]

And there was much rejoicing :|party|:


:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

[FoBoT]

Originally posted by rshepard
Select Test==>Primenet and uncheck the "request whatever work makes sense" box, then check anything EXCEPT "Request Mersenne numbers to factor"

so if i picked the double checking thingy, i did good? :D

i thought i read somewhere that the double check option was relatively quick, so i picked that

[rshepard]

you done good :D

the double checking will run quickest--

[FoBoT]

how can i tell if my account/stats are on the FreeDC team? i can't see in the client where i put that

my status says that it will finish the test on monday, do i just need to wait?

i had created my account over a year ago (see the beginning of this thread), back then there was no FreeDC team, so how do i move my account to FreeDC ?


:drums:

[rshepard]

Did you create a team originally, or were you just running the boxes "at large"?

with no team, if you are re-starting the old client you had,
you should be able to go Test==>User information and put in
UserID==FreeDC
Password==go-4-it
ComputerID== whatever you like.

If you did make a team, you may have to write Primenet to get your old points moved over.

[FoBoT]

oh, i don't know, i thought userID meant me, not the team

why is it "user" ID if its a "team" ?? :confused:

i have "FoBoT" in there right now, i was probably "at large" i guess

hmmm, so i can just change those settings anytime?

so i put FreeDC as my userID and FoBoT as my ComputerID ? that is a bit unintuitive :scratch:

[magnav0x]

Yeah Fobot, that's about the gist of it :rolleyes:

Realy does stink they don't have better team support for such a large project. But if e-mail Primenet and have your units moved over to FreeDC that would move us up to 13,334 place hehe

[magnav0x]

how can i tell if my account/stats are on the FreeDC team?

http://mersenne.org/cgi-bin/primenet_report.pl?UserID=FreeDC&UserPW=go-4-it

You will see your name in there somewhere once it has sent a report with your client configured for FreeDC (possibly up to 24 hours)

[Beyond]

You will need to e-mail George Woltman to make the changes FoBoT -----> woltman@alum.mit.edu