Operation: Linux

[CaptainMooseInc]

Alright guys, I'm on a mission. I want to make a Linux machine. I don't have the parts for the computer, but I want the know-how before I hang my genitals above the CPU Fan when it comes to installing Linux.

First of all, what Linux should I use (and don't worry about whether it's free or costs $$$, because I've got a SuprNova :blush: way of getting it).

I am very experienced in running DOS (I've still got a version of DOS 2.5 running around somewhere) and Windows 3.11 thru Win XP Pro.

I want to be able to get a copy of Linux, build a computer, and install it just like Windows (or close to it) and have almost full if not full compatibility with programs in Windows or things like it.

I'm not dumb, so if there are a few extras steps involved then fine, I'm all for it.

When my box is ready to go, I want to go with it.

-Jeff

[PY 222]

Jeff, for a person that wants to get into the Linux world, I would definitely recommend Mandrake as the distro to get started with.

http://www.mandrakelinux.com/en-us/

I've found it to be easy to install as everything is a step by step process and with some knowledge in computer terminology, you'll be browsing the web in your shinny new Linux box.

Download the ISOs, burn it and then pop it into your machine. The rest should be a piece of cake.

Good luck. You'll love it.

[CaptainMooseInc]

So Mandrake huh? Ok...one opinon recorded....I know there are more out there.

C'mon ppl. I wanna hear!:bonk: even if I have to pound it outta ya.

Note: Not inexperienced with computers, so talk all the talk you want.

-Jeff

[rshepard]

PY 222 nailed it-- Mandrake is where you want to be for your first time out.
Red Hat's Fedora isn't a bad second choice, but I think they're right between releases
(Core 2 vs. Core 3) so it might not be the place to jump in just now. Either one will let you get comfortable with Linux, at which point you'll probably want to blow the box out and install Gentoo on it.

[Bok]

Probably right, start off w/ Mandrake or Fedora, as they are installs with minimal user interaction.and give you full featured OS's.

Problem is that they won't teach you a great deal about linux itself, but if you are willing to work on them (in command line mode preferably) then you'll get there.

Once comfortable, I would always then suggest Gentoo, even just a stage3 install would teach you a great deal more about linux than mandrake ever will.

Bok :D

[Chinasaur]

Libranet Debian. Get off on the right foot and don't mess around with .rpm hell. :scared:

Knoppix is also a good choice as you don't even have to install it. Just boot it, make a disk R/W if you need to do so, and use it as you would any other distro..albeit a bit more slowly than a HD install as it runs off the CD.

And you can bring the box over to the house and I'll walk you through the install and show you how to use apt-get...which will take about 2 minutes or less :smoking:

I'll also drop some copies of Knoppix, Mandrake and SuSE on you.

:cheers:

[IronBits]

Use the search feature on this Forum :D

Also, http://www.free-dc.org/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5354

[QIbHom]

Count me with Chinasaurus for Libranet and Knoppix. I wasted 4 years fighting RPM dependancy hell before moving to a Debian based distro.

If you have a computer you can afford to hose (and not to use for a month or two), I'd highly recommend building an LFS system after you start to feel comfortable with whatever distro you decide to try. It'll teach you more about how things fit together and how things work than years of playing at the command line.

Read distrowatch, try a few different distros (the more you install, the better you'll get at it), pick one, and play a bit. Or don't <g>.

[CaptainMooseInc]

After my g/f's system is complete, then I'll start work on another system on top of that. If I like what I can do with it, then I might convert the one I'm typing from now to a Linux box too. I gotta break my self of Monstersoft b4 Longhorn....

[Longbow]

For what it is worth I have basically no Linux experience and I installed SUSE in less than half an hour and have been working with it since with no hassle at all.

[gopher_yarrowzoo]

Knoppix is a good to start with and the latest ones are really nice - easy enough HDD installer (once ya figure out a few things) heck I loved it when I had it running on a K6-3-450 before I had to give the box to someone who needed it more than me and one of the mem chips failed (would be the 128Mb stick)

there is a knoppix install tutorial somewhere http://www.linuxiso.com is a good place to get the latest ISO's for any Linux (forum's there are good too)

[Scoofy12]

ill concur with the general sentiment so far. i got my start on redhat 6.0 or so, at different times have tried and liked mandrake and gentoo (dont do gentoo till after youve done something else... or if you have an 8-node compile farm or something), but ive been a debian lover for some time and dont use much else anymore. that move was largely motivated by rpm hell, as also mentioned. debian is almost easy enough to install for those with little experience and its also getting pretty darned easy to use, even when compared to the most newbie friendly distros. still, its not quite easy enough (really just the installer) to recommend to a complete newbie. just keep it in mind when you go for round 2. if youre like me, it will be really fun for you now that you can get your grubby little fingers into all the nooks and crannies that you wont be able to resist, and sooner or later youll break something badly enough that it might be easier just to reinstall... adn when that happens, why not try another distro? (and why not leave the RPM camp for the deb camp, which is one of the major differentiators)

havent tried SuSE or any debian derivatives, but ive heard they are good also

[CaptainMooseInc]

rpm hell? What's rpm? Explain Debian and RPM to me plz...

-Jeff

[QIbHom]

rpm hell? What's rpm? Explain Debian and RPM to me plz...

There are 3 basic ways of getting new software on to your Linux box, and managing what is there. They are;

1) rpm - stands for Red Hat Package Manager. Used by rpm-based distros, such as Mandrake, Fedora, SuSE, etc. Tries to handle dependancy issues (in order to install foo, you need bar version 1.5.3.6, and so on).

2) tgz - or source. Used by Slackware. Does absolutely no dependancy checking. Very easy, until you stomp on dependancies.

3) apt - Used by Debian-based distros, such as Libranet, Knoppix, etc. Handles dependancy issues well.

All are command line programs. rpm and apt have various GUI programs that run on top of them, if you wish. Slackware and it's cousins may - I'm just starting to play with it, and I prefer to do this kind of thing at the command line.

One of the main advantages of apt-based distros is that you don't have to do reinstalls to do big upgrades.

rpm hell is when you get caught in a maze of twisty little dependancies, all looking alike, that you can't resolve because in order to fix program a, you have to install program b, which requires program c, which requires program a. This kind of thing rarely happens in apt-based distros, unless they are based on experimental or Sid.

There is a lot more about the differences, and people sometimes get rather partisan. Spend some time at distrowatch.org, which is a very good source of information on the different distributions, their target audiences, etc. Then read the reviews that Ladislav (of distrowatch) links to. That'll give you a decent idea of the situation.

I'd recommend playing with Knoppix for a bit, but not installing it (I found it difficult to upgrade), then installing Libranet. Both are free (as in beer), although there will be a charge for the new Libranet version when it comes out. As a disclaimer, I am a Libranet beta tester, and there is something about seeing your suggestions implimented that does tend to make one a bit partisan.

Another good way to get a sense of distros is to sign up for their mailing lists before installing them, and spending at least a few days lurking. This will give you an idea of how friendly and helpful the lists are or aren't, and how much traffic you'll have to sort through.

[Bok]

4. emerge

:cool:

[QIbHom]

4. emerge

True, Bok. I haven't played with gentoo, and keep forgetting about the source-based distros. I did install LFS once, and it was very educational (and a lot of fun). I haven't played with gentoo and the others.

I've generally seen that folks don't recommend source-based distros for folks new to Linux. Which is no excuse for me forgetting to mention it. I guess my only excuse is it's newness, which really isn't a good excuse.

[Mustard]

RPM's are files that either can be used for installing, or updating an application on RedHat linux for example. Other distributions use the .rpm format also. What the rpm's do not do is to check for package dependencies. ie, you want to install a new game for instance. The game may require a certain special library file in order to run. RPM's do not check for dependencies unlike a couple of other package managers. While we are at it, Slackware (which I'm extremely fond of) also has a package manager that doesn't check for dependencies. So the responsib ility to check for dependencies rests with the person installing the packge (new game in this instance). That is what is referred to as "rpm hell."

Just another major reason to go with a distro that takes care of dependencies for you, specially if you are new to linux. I also use Libranet, it's package manager checks for dependencies. I also like Suse, where dependencies are taken care of for you. My recommendation for people just starting out with linux is to go with Suse. It gets you over the initial hump extremely painlessly as long as your hardware is listed in their "supposrted hardware" listing.

As for Mandrake, it is a good distro too, however Mandrake normally puts in the very latest releases for included applications. Sometimes this is good, sometimes it is not. :) In this regard, Suse is a bit more circumspect. Suse 9.1 personal is free and can be downloaded. Grab that or have a friend do it and burn a CD. Also grab a Mandrake install. Try both and see what you think. Both are very popular around the world.

[QIbHom]

I also like Suse, where dependencies are taken care of for you.

Really, Lexx? It's improved quite a bit, then, since I finally got sick of ending up in rpm hell with it. Let's see...it was version 9.1 where I gave up on it, I think.

SuSE is a fine distro. I used it for about 4 years. But, when it gets hosed, it gets really hosed. If you stick to the software they provide, life is happy. If you start installing other stuff (and Red Hat rpms don't always work), things can get tricky quickly.

But, any distro is better than Windows <g>.

[Chinasaur]

There is a free version of Libranet for download that usually lags a release or two behind current.

[QIbHom]

There is a free version of Libranet for download that usually lags a release or two behind current.

The current version (2.8.1) is available for free right now, because 3.0 is so late. Jon and Tal wanted to create some buzz before 3.0 comes out.

[Chinasaur]

Wow! Coolness :)

I purchased 2.0 so maybe it's time I buy another one when 3.0 comes out. :thumbs:


:cheers:

[CaptainMooseInc]

Buy software? What is this you speak of? :thumbs:

[Chinasaur]

The Libranet d00ds have busted their azzes to make Debian user friendly, and they improved on the Debian installer.

Supporting their efforts is worthwhile :) :thumbs:


:cheers:

[MerePeer]

Here's my vote: DEBIAN. All free all the time. Get a smooth installer for the 'testing' aka 'sarge' release here: http://www.nl.debian.org/devel/debian-installer/
I suggest not bothering with the earlier, 'stable', release since 'sarge' is very reliable and has the newer installer.

I grabbed the minimal cd, then installed from net.

When I want fresher packages, or when I want to add a package, I run the Debian gui called synaptic. Screen shot below. To install a package I right mouse on the line and say 'mark for installation', then Apply. When I press "reload" it goes out to the Debian mirrors and grabs a list of what newer stuff I can get. I can install 2.4 or 2.6 kernel images the same way and it automagically adds them to grub.

Packages like firefox, openoffice, and emacs are all available through a right mouse click.

Note: if you are going to shrink a fat/ntfs drive to make room for Linux, I recommend going here http://www.sysresccd.org and not relying on the Mandrake 10 shrinker (because it wasted my Windoz partition last summer).

[Ancala]

I use Debian as well.

Another option is Damn Small Linux (DSL). It even has a version that runs on top of windows to start the learning process.

Anc

[PCZ]

I'm shocked that you guys actually install binaries you didn't compile yourself :D

make is your friend :jester:

[Ancala]

And an incredible time sync recreating things already built :P

Anc

[magicfan241]

The only Linux experience I've ever had is with a VIA C3 and Fedora Core 1. I handled everything really well, and I could double-click on my rpm's and get them to install :p . I once tried Redhat 7.3, but gave up as I couldnn't get anything to upgrade or anything. FC1/2/3(?) have the update manager, which handily updates all of your installed programs when you tell it to. Works for me all of the time, and kept me from wondering if there was an update.

But I'm effectively a n00b to linux to, so my opion is not worth as much as those who are more experienced.

magicfan241

[Dyyryath]

If you're going to use a Debian based distro, you need to try Ubuntu:

http://www.ubuntu.com

It is the slickest, most up-to-date (a common gripe about debian) Debian based install out there. It uses Gnome for the default desktop (which some people like, some don't), but it is pretty and with Ubuntu's touches, brain dead easy. Ubuntu also does a -very- good job at hardware detection, setting up printers, etc.

I use Gentoo on my development workstation at home, but I've got Ubuntu on my box at work and it's wonderful. :thumbs:

[PCZ]

I will add my own thoughts to this thread.

If you come from a windows background you won't be happy with any linux distro.
Over time it may grow on you if you are an enthusiast.

I use linux because I have to.
My PXE boot farm won't work without it.
At work I have to manage UNIX/linux machines.

If I had to replace my desktop machine with linux I would leave the company in a nanosecond.

As good as the linux desktop has become it still isn't a replacement for a windows machine with microsoft office, outlook ,visio etc.
One day it may be, but not today.

[Dyyryath]

I think it depends on what you're used to, honestly. I feel the same way PCZ does, only if I had to change from Linux to Windows XP (which I use on a few systems at home) I'd throw a huge friggin hissy fit. :D

I don't do a lot of word processing, but I do use spreadsheets extensively. I use Open Office. I'm used to it, and it does everything (and a whole lot more) than I need.

I use Evolution for email/calendar/todo. I've used Outlook in the past and it has the crappiest IMAP support ever. I wouldn't trade it for Evolution under any circumstances. Evolution also syncs with my bluetooth mobile phone like a champ. :thumbs:

I'll give him the Visio thing. Linux doesn't have anything that comes close to Visio. Fortunately, I don't require it often. When I want it, I run it under VMWare.

Now, as a developer, I can tell you that I *LOVE* Linux. Language support is installed pretty much out of the box on every modern distro. Want C? It's there. Perl? Yup. Python? Yeah, that, too. I'm even doing more & more of my C# programming under Linux using Mono. You can use each of these under Windows, but it's just so much slicker (and free) under Linux. If I never have to deal with the monostrosity of Visual Studio again, I'll be a happy guy (though it's forms editor is pretty swanky). Komodo is just fine for my development IDE requirements.

Here's another thing: I do an enormous amount of work remotely. SSH is wonderful for this. Yes, you can use SSH under Windows, but when you get to the other end, you still have the brutally painful DOS CMD environment to work in. Lord save me from slow, remote desktop software. :D

Now, to be fair, I'm not a typical user. However, some of the things that I share with regular users are still just as easy under Linux and (even better) free: k3b for slick CD/DVD burning (nope, didn't have to buy Nero), grip for ripping MP3s, gxine for playing pretty much any kind of video file (don't need WMP & Quicktime), and GAIM for pretty much any IM client under the sun.

Finally, after spending several hours a week trying to clean up spyware infected PCs, coming home to Firefox & a clean system is a nice break. (Yes, you can use Firefox under Windows, but most people still use IE).

In the end, I'd say that since I'm used to Linux & the 'open source' way of doing things, Windows seems to just be full of annoyances. I wouldn't expect Linux to seem any different to someone who uses Windows the bulk of the time. In the end, it's just what you're used to (and to some degree, what your needs are).

[magicfan241]

Originally posted by Dyyryath

I don't do a lot of word processing, but I do use spreadsheets extensively. I use Open Office. I'm used to it, and it does everything (and a whole lot more) than I need.

I use Evolution for email/calendar/todo. I've used Outlook in the past and it has the crappiest IMAP support ever. I wouldn't trade it for Evolution under any circumstances. Evolution also syncs with my bluetooth mobile phone like a champ. :thumbs:

I'll give him the Visio thing. Linux doesn't have anything that comes close to Visio. Fortunately, I don't require it often. When I want it, I run it under VMWare.


I don't personally use Visio, but I still have my Wordperfect 2000 for Linux Install CD's. Open Offcie can't hold a candle to Wordperfect, even a version that is close to 5 (if not more than 5) years old now. It might just be me, but I can't stand OpenOffice. Wordperfect all the way!

But I will have to agree that I hate Outlook. But then again, I use M2 for my mail, by Opera. I never really liked Evolution, becaue it wouldn't connect throught the messed up pile of junk that is my home network.

I still need the REVEAL CODES function for other word processors to make them compare. and ctrl + s should be single space anyway, I don't know what these other guys are talking about with these functions. shift +F11 all the way :p

magicfan241

[room101]

Just thought i would add my opinion, i use linspire on most of my home machines. it takes about 10mins to load and be connected and with the subsciption to cnr one click downloads and installs the progams from the website. also you have a home leicence which covers all the machines in the house. if you use a windows box going to linspire is proberly the easyest....:cheers:

[PCZ]

room101

My take on linux for home use is that it should be free.
If you feel that the distro is good then support the people who put it together by
purchasing the full product or making a donation.
The point is here that it is your choice.

Lindows is not free and is heavily tied in to the click 'n' buy.
I got a free developer edition a while back and installed it.
They tried to hide the fact it was linux and make you register and buy any software you needed from the click 'n' buy.
This made me very angry, and it was uninstalled very quickly.

Lindows is not free and will try to milk as much money as possible from those unfortunate enough to get caught in there web.

If you want to try linux go to linuxiso.org (http://www.linuxiso.org)
You can download for free and there are forums where you can learn about the various distros.

[Chinasaur]

Does Lindows (Linspire) still set the primary user up as root/admin? Or do they now prompt you to make a non-privelaged user logon?

[Dyyryath]

Ubuntu is probably the slickest 'free' desktop distro out right now. It's based on Debian, uses Gnome 2.8 and is tailored for desktop use. They also do several things in particular 'right' (like using Firefox instead of Epiphany for the default browser), including the mandatory use of a non-privileged account as the default. In fact, the default setup doesn't even enable the root account. Everything is done as the regular user through sudo (though it's all handled through the GUI).

I've never been a particularly huge fan of Debian (Gentoo is my favorite), but this is one slick version of it.

[room101]

I agree that its not free, but you are not tied to the click and run warehouse. i have installed quite a few programs with apt as its debian based. to date it has cost me $29 for the iso download which is on 9 machines and $39 dollers for a years cnr of which i have downloaded 80 to 90 programs..... i can either not continue the subscription and keep the software or just install using apt... compared to the cost of buying microsoft and other software it has proberly saved me around £2000, why it looks like windows is very clear they are trying to get windows users to migrate and it needs to load easier that windows and faster to be considered by alot of windows users. the majority of comuters users just want to sit at there machines and write letters and surf without having to know how it works...

[Dyyryath]

I really don't have any problem with charging for a Linux distro. If it brings something (great support, ease of use, tailored packages) to the mix, that's often going to be worth something to someone.