Anyone have a corn burning stove?

[Jeff]

We are going to be getting an alternative heating source in the next year and I've researched a couple solutions. The easiest for us would be to supliment our existing oil burning/forced air furnace with a couple electric base-board heaters for use overnight. We are on what is referred to as "night rate" electric so we only pay ~$0.04 per kW at night.

The next thing is wood burning stove. While this is very economical... the need for another chimeny is a big negative for us. Our split level ranch just isn't a house style that makes it easy for us(where we would want to put the stove at least).

Next up is wood pellet. This is a GREAT idea and being able to put 300lbs of pellets in a stove and have it burn for over a week VERY much appeals to me. I'm 99% sold on this idea but...

Corn burning stove. I LOVE the idea of using corn for energy... even more so than wood pellets(which is waste wood). Only problem is that nobody I know actually has one. I'd love to hear some feedback about the good and bad if anyone here has experience with one.

:cheers:
Jeff

[ronbo54]

Try looking at www.motherearthnews.com (http://www.motherearthnews.com)

The ony thing I would wonder about is the smell of burning corn

Just bought an panel that hangs on the wall and plugs into regular outlet that's supposed to cost 3 cents/hour at .08/KWH electric rate. (1 per 10x10 room). I'll let you know if it's worth it (hasn't been cold enough here yet to try it).

Of course you can always add a large pharm to the cold rooms :D

[em99010pepe]

Are you going to heat all the house? Probably the best solution is by gas heating but you have to make some calculations (thickness and height of walls, temperatures outside and inside, etc) to get the thermal capacity of you home divisions.

Carlos

[IronBits]

A friend of mine, who owns a large farm/ranch and grew up and lives in Denver, CO. has a corn burning stove.
http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles/monroe42.html
Another friend, who has lived in Roseburg, OR. for 30 years, has a pellet stove and loves his.

[Jeff]

Not going any "gas" route. Not worth it at all since the cost per therm is so high. (we also do not have natural gas passing by our house so that is completely out)

We are only going to be supplementing our heating... mostly at night. I've heard many, many people say that their wood pellet stove heats their entire house the whole winter. With our split level setup, it will be ideal since heat rises and cool air falls. Just curious as to how wood pellet and corn compare.

I also loved the idea of a secondary wood furnace. It installs right next to your existing furnace and you tie into the cold and hot air ducts. Great idea but the chimney work is too much for us.

BTW, we've been thinking about this for the past two years and now is the time it seems to be right. Although we may just wait 'til spring since I'm sure there is a bit of gouging going on for anything "alternative" right now...

[LAURENU2]

Try A geothermal heat pump is an ideal year-round system for almost every home. If you now have an old heat pump, you will be amazed at how comfortably warm the heat is from a geothermal heat pump. In the summer, it can provide plenty of low-cost cooling, even on the hottest afternoons.

These systems are extremely efficient. In the winter, for each $1 on your utility bills, you get up to $4 worth of heat ($3 free heat from the earth). Basically, a geothermal heat pump uses the ground around your house for its heating and cooling capacity. Over its life, a geothermal heat pump can save thousands of dollars and be less expensive than oil or propane.
And can be setup to supply all your hot water needs as well

I have installed one here in Chicago and it works well even in our harch weather
But you do need open land and need to dig a deep hole to set the pipeing
Good luck

[Digital Parasite]

Geothermal heat pumps are great, but like you said, you need to dig a really deep hole, over 30 feet right? And while you might save costs in the long-run, isn't the startup cost for a heat-pump very expensive, like tens of thousands of dollars?

What do you need to do to "retro-fit" a house that doesn't already have a heat pump, is it much work after the holes are dug to get it fit into your house to work?

Also, what temps do heat pumps no longer really work at? Up here it can get -40 in the winter so would a heat pump still provide enough heat to be viable?

[LAURENU2]

When it is a Geo setup the condensing coil is always at 40% F summer and winter
that is how it can rack up a 300% efficiency

And yes they are better setup when you are diging your footing before you build you new house
If space is limited you can drill a Vertical hole to set your loops or the cheapest way is with a pond or river
you can read more about it here http://www.geoexchange.org/about/how.htm

[Jeff]

Never thought of something like this... I'm going to have to look into the cost of the equipment. I can do the labor myself since my neighbor is a contractor and he let's me use his heavy equipment whenever I need to. I also have ~7 acres so space isn't a concern.

Thanks for the alternative alternative. ;)

[LAURENU2]

If you have the space go for it, all you need is a 100' trench for every Ton (12,000 Btu) of cooling But more the better
The Nice thing about this is you do not have to feed it or clean it up and you can even get rid of your gas hot water heater.
And I believe most Elect. Co. give lower rates when you heat with Elect.

The system I installed here contracted out for $110.000.00 But ran into snags and cost overruns and topped off at 123K
It was for a small shopping mall near by

[Shish]

When I had this house built, I did look into geothermal but the cost quoted (at the time) and some ground problems (mining area and highly compacted earth) plus the lack of the now available government grants made it a bit too expensive.
But the systems are now more cost competitive (especially on a new build) and the technology is gaining even more headway in these days of spiralling energy prices.
Where I worked, in a large spreadout office complex, the heating and ventilation was a completely integrated system and cost savings from integrating the computer rooms below ground (ex nuclear shelter) and automated heat exchanger systems including internal heat from air exhaust, external air heat exchange and the almost total recovery of heat waste from both air and water waste, made the buildings both comfortable and very economical to use and savings over the current life span of the complex have been quite enormous and continue to increase with the rise in energy prices. I believe, last time I heard, running costs are now at a level of less than 18% of a similar size complex which is an enormous saving.
This house does have a fully integrated air and solar heat exchange system which recovers waste heat as well and supplies cooling. My gas and electric bills, even including what used to be a farm of 15 computers, are still less than half the cost of some of the other guys I speak to regularly who are in DC like most of us here and the initial extra cost has been recovered in around 5 years and I project cost savings of at least 50% for the life of the house or around 100 years.
I am planning my next house now and am definitely going to make sure it includes a combination of all the systems including solar and heat pump technology and doing this in the build plans makes it considerably cheaper and means savings can be even better.
Cost effective??? Just guess at oil and gas prices in 20-30 years time my friends and, of course, electricity if you live in one of the warmer parts of the world to keep you comfortable. It ain`t getting any cheaper is it?? Don`t matter whether you live in a hot or cold region, being comfortable in your old age is good.

[LAURENU2]

You can even do it with little or no land with a 2 well system 1 intake 1 discharge well

[Digital Parasite]

Originally posted by LAURENU2
The system I installed here contracted out for $110.000.00 But ran into snags and cost overruns and topped off at 123K

Woh... Somehow I think I would be alive to see the cost-recovery date of installing a heating/cooling system that cost a third of my entire houses value. :eek:

[Shish]

Quote "It was for a small shopping mall near by"

Cheap enough for a small shopping mall.

I just wish I could afford to tap into any of the nearby mine shafts which go down a LONG way into the "Metal Hill" (local nickname). All the submerged pumps were abandoned a while back after being maintained at tremendous cost for some years and the miles of interlinked mines are now mostly flooded completely which caused a lot of disturbance to the water table initially.
Last time I was down one of the local shafts it was bloody hot (pretty close to hell I believe :D ) down there and the nearest one is only capped out. Wonder how much a couple miles of poly pipe would cost ;) . Could start my own power station and sell cheap power to UK DC`ers.:D

[LAURENU2]

Originally posted by Digital Parasite
Woh... Somehow I think I would be alive to see the cost-recovery date of installing a heating/cooling system that cost a third of my entire houses value. :eek:

Well if your heating/cooling cost ran 25 to 30 K a year would you not invest 125 K to bring it down to 10K
The system pays for itself in 5 to 6 years

Shish One thing about a open system like a well or lake it will cut the life of your piping in 1/2 due to the oxygen and mineral in the water.

[birdman2584]

Heres a recent article on wood burning stoves...just happened to run across it

article (http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20051018/lf_nm/bizfeature_woodstoves_dc)

Have a good read:looney:

[Digital Parasite]

Originally posted by LAURENU2
Well if your heating/cooling cost ran 25 to 30 K a year would you not invest 125 K to bring it down to 10K The system pays for itself in 5 to 6 years

Sorry, I misread that. You said, "The system I installed here" so I thought you were talking about your house, either that or you live in a mall. :D

How much would a typical system cost for a house then? I'm guessing doing a vertical install is probably a lot more expensive than a horizontal one right?

[LAURENU2]

You would have to talk to a well driller for that , Or if you can get a water well in your local But My guess would be yes
And as I said a open system will not last as long as a closed system

[Jeff]

Any idea what equipment costs for a household setup? I read a few webpages about these coolers but none of them talked about actual costs.

[CaptainMooseInc]

I could save you a little money on your electric bill there Jeff....

Try not running your computer's on D2OL. What a waste of processing power. :-p

FaD would be much much better for whatever computer(s) may be running D2OL.

:D

(just playful banter)

-Jeff

[Jeff]

110% agreed on D2OL. I wish the project well but I just don't see anything being done with it. :(

BTW, I'm just about switched over to Rosetta@Home now. There is a rig or two still doing D2OL but I'm not sure where they are? :)

(p.s. Nothing wrong with playful banter!) :cheers:

[LAURENU2]

Originally posted by Jeff
Any idea what equipment costs for a household setup? I read a few webpages about these coolers but none of them talked about actual costs.

Now thats the hard part it all depends on your needs the load you need, your local, your groun,d The labor cost in your local, ECT.

[Jeff]

We're going the wood pellet stove route. Just too simple and relatively cheap to pass up. Corn definitely has my eye for the next stove but for our first one I figured a 120lbs hopper, wood pellet stove would be the easiest for us. Only problem is we have to wait until February to get it since the manufacturers are soo backlogged.

Thanks for all the conversation here. :cheers:

[Jeff]

I ended up buying the stove last week. I went into the dealer to see what the total would be for one and order it but they ended up getting four in an hour or so before I showed up. I couldn't resist since nobody else in town had any and it would probably be February at the earliest before they received any more.

I just connected a thermostat this afternoon and it's great. It'll run on very-low until it the thermostat kicks it into high. Very nice setup and the 120lb hopper is very nice.

I'm actually thinking of getting the addon for 280lbs total. :D

Thanks again. :cheers:

[Shish]

Looks like you`re in for a nice warm CHEAP winter mate.

New grants just announced in UK for green energy projects, and they include geothermal this time, so my mate (works for a very big HVAC company :D ;) ) is sorting out some details for my next house.
Seems that as we have to top clear the ground (ex-industrial) we can get it trenched etc at the same time as we alter the services already available and save a fortune so the plastic pipe will be in very soon even if we don`t sort out the rest for quite some time and it`ll be sufficiently deep that we won`t have any other interference with it later.

I`m also adding a couple combo wind turbines/air intake/extractors to the gable ends which is a new idea apparently although I thought it was a logical thing to do
and they`re also liable to grant aid. Top it off with a mix of solar heating (dirt cheap) and some new much cheaper (and grant aided) solar strip energy panels and that lots mainly sorted.

Only bother I`ve got is getting them to allow the multi channel insulation scheme for the walls as the regs are stupid on the way you have insulation in nowadays and I want something capable of ultra efficiency with the new type materials but the EU wants their own thing.

Get there in the end I guess, and likely 2 years away yet.

Enjoy your stoves Jeff and make them as maintenance free as possible....get the wife to fill `em up ;) :blush: :smoking:

[LAURENU2]

Shish
There is a insulation out that is only a 1/4 inch thick and has a R value of 11
It is vary good stuff I built a outside cat house with it and tacked pipe thawing cabled inside around the walls and in the winter when it was 0 =F or -30 C it was 65 F inside that house with a open cloth door If you want I will get you the info on it

[Jeff]

Originally posted by Shish
Enjoy your stoves Jeff and make them as maintenance free as possible....get the wife to fill `em up ;) :blush: :smoking:

:rotfl:

[Shish]

Thanks Laurenu2 but it`s sorted.
Just this stupid nanny state has you getting approval for anything new.
The channel insulation system is a thermo sprayed urethane between 2 sheets of woven millium and super efficient despite being only 1 inch thick (but metric whatever) and it`s only that thick because it`s ribbed or channel shaped, bit like corrugated iron sheet, for strength. Light as a feather and normally goes onto a single wall on the inside but I want a traditional cavity wall for several other reasons such as running pipe and cables inside and they`re insisting you can`t do that and I have to use it inside and outside or summat or also use a standard cladding inside where I want solid brick. Can`t figure their logic but it`s crap. I may just give in cos the stuff is very cheap to buy in bulk and single layer it`s near total efficient and double it would trap heat inside the cavity when the heating is on and you can`t vent the cavity as it`s a fire risk which is another reason to use the stuff cos it`s damn nigh fireproof........ !111666$*80X977!!! people..... pain in the arse. What I don`t want is the thermal cladding they`re putting onto inside walls now as standard cos you can`t even put a nail into that
I`ll get there in the end, just these underpaid government engineers who`re 20 years out of date.:mad:
There`s also some reason why the grants are specifying air exchange thermal pumps and not geo but I haven`t got that far yet and it may just be a mistake cos air isn`t half as good as geo. Anyway, got my MP amd EUMP on it plus the HVAC people and we should get approval well before we need to start worrying, despite the time it takes any government dept to do anything. That`s the mistake (quite costly) I made last time with novel engineering solutions. They were certified for industrial use (offices, factories and shops) but not residential cos nobody ever thought anybody would want to be that thorough with a combination solution for HVAC and had never bothered to ratify it because, being 20 years behind the times (6 years ago) they didn`t see any need for it in a domestic situation. That system, in 5 years, has paid for itself and is now in profit though we did have some teething troubles. Even that was partly because we gave in and complied with what an official wanted sooner than wait 6 months for them to come round to our way of thinking.
Engineers???? I`ve sacked better engineers than those jobsworths. Can`t even read a rules book properly.:swear:
I`m going to sit in a darkened room now cos just thinking about some of the hassle we had 7 years ago has got me boiling.

[Digital Parasite]

Shish, I can understand geothermal and something to generate electricty, but why the wind and solar? Wind wouldn't be enough to generate everything you need? How does wind compare to solar pricing?

Check out this new kind of wind turbine:
http://opensourceenergy.org/txtlstvw.aspx?LstID=99b82ae5-287f-4bb4-868d-2a44417a564b

"TMA's vertical axis wind turbine introduces competitive advantage
Design creates pull on the back side, contributing to 40%+ wind conversion efficiencies; doesn't kill birds; runs more quietly; and doesn't need to be installed as high, blending better with landscape. Generating costs estimated at 3.5 cents per kilowatt-hour, surpassing conventional energy sources."

[em99010pepe]

Almost an engineer here so I have to defend them. Hehe.

The source of all clean energies is the sun so it makes sence to use it to generate electricty. The wind is also a product of the sun. The mother of all is the SUN.
You can use the solar energy to heat water, that's probably the best way to do it. I don't know the prices in UK/Canada para here they are getting cheaper everyday. Convert sun directly to electricity is still very expensive. That's one thing I can't understand when Portugal is a country of sun, just like Israel or Greece. These ones are way ahead of us portuguese.
Because in the UK is always raining, :lmao: , the best way to use a clean energy is by the force of the wind or by making more dams/barrages. UK could fly if a lot of turbines are installed!

You can recycle almost 95% of a wind turbine, the major problem is that they are going to be bigger and bigger due to the air density (very low) and so a negative visual impact although I like the aspect of it.

Can you guys tell me what's the impact point of birds in a wind turbine? Any guess?

Carlos

EDIT:

Power energy=1/2*air density*area*velocity^3

area= through which the wind is passing=PI/4*diameter^2

[em99010pepe]

I was checking here a book about renewable energies and look here at the definition of geothermal energy:

Geothermal energy results from heat stored in rock by earth's natural heat flow. The latter depends on the massive temperature difference between the surface (sun heats) and the interior.


The fist wind farm installed in the UK was in Delabole, Cornwall.

Carlos

[Scoofy12]

heres another interesting idea in the biofuels/home heating realm:http://www.wired.com/news/planet/0,2782,69524,00.html?tw=wn_tophead_1

[em99010pepe]

Answer to my question. Don't laugh. Birds hit the tower instead of hitting the blades!

Pictures of a few turbines:

http://img332.imageshack.us/img332/159/renovaveis0469hp.th.jpg (http://img332.imageshack.us/my.php?image=renovaveis0469hp.jpg) http://img332.imageshack.us/img332/2548/renovaveis0838zk.th.jpg (http://img332.imageshack.us/my.php?image=renovaveis0838zk.jpg) http://img332.imageshack.us/img332/7209/renovaveis0486oi.th.jpg (http://img332.imageshack.us/my.php?image=renovaveis0486oi.jpg)

[Shish]

Being an animal and more particularly a bird lover, I hate those big turbines and nothing has been done at all in the way of research to minimise bird deaths, in particular rare birds and protected species and that makes my blood boil.
There are some extremely simple things that could be done to minimise these problems but nobody has even thought very much about it because there is a big push and a lot of industrial and government big money behind the turbines.
Any fool will tell you what birds don`t like. Certain frquencies of sound and the way some lights flash and reflect are very effective bird scarers. Birds simply do not see or in above normal winds can`t avoid these monster blades and it doesn`t take much to damage a bird. The ethos of flight in a lightweight, aero dynamic creature dictates running before any wind and just steering, similar to a yacht if any of you are yachtsmen. You don`t fight a massive headwind, you tack at best or trim everything down and run before it or sit into it if you can with a sea anchor over the stern. I seem to remember a recent news article about some US cities turning lights off overnight to limit migrating bird deaths which seems to be working but there seems a distinct effort to keep the turbine problem quiet. I have seen the effects of a wind farm locally on bird population and just found out, one of the things contracted to by the landlord was to employ a crew to clear bird carcases daily and dispose of them quietly with no figures being taken and an NDA on the contract.

As to the house design.
The wind turbines are minis and super efficient, built into the gable ends and there are 6 of them. Doesn`t matter which way they run, intake and output, they produce ac via alternators. They are also dual purpose as they are exhaust and intake for the HVAC and at the same time provide free power for lights, pumps and other continuous small loads.
The solar panels are strip panels with, more or less, alternate water heating and solar power and there is a lot of energy to be had even in the UK. Even an average dull winter day will provide positive power and heat. Combine that with the geo thermal and I will not only have a free source of heat, light, hot water and cooling in summer, the house will be energy positive most of the year and divert surplus power to the National Grid which gives me a credit against my other energy needs and pays for itself at the same time. And best of all, I get some money back off the government to help with the cost.
A similar installation in the newish offices I used to work in was very nearly energy positive and paid for itself in five years and that wasn`t half as efficient as the equipment available now and had the disadvantage (soon to be rectified) of using air exchange thermal gear instead of geo. As it also used to be a nuclear bunker, it had several emergency diesel generators (large ones) and all bar one was removed after the offices were proved. Mind you, the heat coming from the main computer and switching rooms on the lowest level was well used as well and that was one of the biggest savings. They`re now using the fact that it goes a long way below ground and also has some old mine workings close to it to go over to geo thermal instead of the less efficient air exchange and that will also provide HVAC to 2 schools and a small estate of house/bungalows/flats which is mainly for disabled and pensioners, giving them virtually cost free district heating and hot water.
So......all I`ve gotta do is cash in my other pensions and get the rest of it through the planning committees and get it built.....probably take 5 years the rate we`re running into obstructions just now but I have some power on my side as of yesterday :D

[Shish]

Just read that article on bio diesel.
You should see some of the fields around Northern England the last few years.
Thousands of acres of rape seed planted on farmland that was officially out of use and paid for as such by a grant from the EU of £15-£20 an acre. And that was legal...still is but they reduced the out of use grants.
They spent millions converting a large chemical works close to us which used to produce a by product of petrol and had most of the necessary plant but was out of use and it`s showing a massive profit which is going to get better.
There is also a couple of farms which in addition to that are also producing methane from their chickens, turkeys and beef herds and it`s mainly funded by grants from both ICI, UK gov and EU because the area was almost completely a coal mining/chemicals plant area, most of which was defunct so loads of government money, National Coal Board and EU funding was available.
It`s working well and will very soon be a major earner considering the rise in fuel prices and if they need it, we`re tremendously rich in both deep mine coal and drift or open cast coal of very high quality.
All we need is to get the oil companies out of the picture and our energy needs would be relatively easy to fill.
Or get them to release all the ideas they`ve bought up and killed off to protect their markets and the money bags that run them.

Anyway, 2 thoughts to dwell on......
Carbon is much easier to get rid of than nuclear waste.
Sulphur is even easier.

They`ve already proved one of our last remaining massive coal fired power stations can be as clean as a gas powered one and we are running out of gas near as quick as we are running out of oil.

A coal fired power station is therefor much more cost effective now than a nuclear one, cheaper to build and lasts longer, can be as clean as gas, and we have the fuel.

Might even see the return of the coal gas producing plants which my father spent so long working in.

One last thought.
Coal fired power stations generate loads of heat. Heat can be used to split sea water into hydrogen (perfect fuel?) and oxygen and taking sea water will reduce the rise in the oceans caused by the ice caps melting......:rotfl:

[Jeff]

Just wanted to say that we are 100% satisfied with our purchase and our oil consumption has dropped off the chart. We still have an oil hot water heater so we are using some... but not even 1/5th of what we were using at this time of the year last year.

:woot:

[Shish]

So now you`ll be spending that saving on more computers and increasing your power bills up to what you were going to save...... :thumbs: :hifi: :whistle: :taz:

[QIbHom]

If you guys haven't seen it, you might enjoy Home Power (http://www.homepower.com/) magazine. I've been getting it for over a year now, and it is written by alternative energy geeks for alternative energy geeks. They are a bit too high on solar power (solar panels are incredibly environmentally unsound, but so are computers), but there have been some really cool articles on wind, microhydro and building techniques.

If you are in the US, they have a nifty program where you donate a sub to a public library, they pay half of it, and you get a tax deduction (for donating to your PL). Hard to beat that.