How low can you go?

[Scott Jensen]

I've heard people here off and on talk about how they're able to run the project on computers that have specs lower than what's stated is required for this project (100 Mhz, 25 MB hard drive, and 128 RAM). So how low can one really go for this project? Not so much care about hard drive space (it's so little it's not a consideration) as chip speed and RAM. Got some old computers as well as have other people with old ones they'd like to add to my coming-soon computer farm. Unfortunately, the ones they're wanting to donate have lower stats than the required, mainly as far as RAM is concerned. And I have yet to come across a 100 Mhz computer that can even take 128 RAM.

Especially interested as far as the Linux client is concerned. The computers will be solely devoted to this project and have nothing else on their hard drives besides their OS. All connected to the net by way of cable modem and running 24/7.

[Aegion]

Unless you are not paying for the electricity, in the long run it makes more sense to purchase a new cheap computer than crunch for the project with some really old computers that will be very inneficient their amount of production in comparison to the amount of electricity they use. The money you save on the electricity in this way can go towards the cost of the new computer. I'm not sure precisely where the cut off point is, but I suspect the 100 mhz is so slow as to make it not worth running if the computer would not be on otherwise.

[Scott Jensen]

How much will the electric bill be? Don't see how it could be much over a year and surely less than even buying a slow computer from an used computer store. However, if I'm wrong in this estimation, I'd appreciate some sound numbers showing my error. :)

[Jodie]

Well, if you want to derive any numbers...

My 1.5Ghz AMDs are about 25times as fast as a 100Mhz Pentium.

100 1.5G machines costs right around $3500/mo in electricity (inflated california prices, of course), removing the cooling from the equation. Or about $35/mo/machine.

The 100Mhz Pentium draws 50% of the power of the 1.5G. So figure ~$17/mo/machine.

So 2500 100Mhz Pentiums (again - forget square footage and cooling and wiring and. . . .) should run around $42,500/mo to do the same work as $3500/mo of current generation.

The AMDs I'm building are $240 each. Which means I could build around 160 of them each month for the cost of electricity to run the original equivalent of P-100.

So go back to the onesie model - if you have 20 P-100's running for one month you can replace it with a single AMD that will outrun the 20 P-100s for just what you would save in power.

So my cutoff would be around five or ten machines - I'd just say 'no thanks' and buy one AMD.

Now factor-in the maintanence soft-costs of maintaining a 10 machine farm against a single machine. The autoupdates that don't, that kinda thing.

I can't imagine that I'd bother powering-up a P-100 for a distributed project these days. Nice paperweights, doorstops, draganchors - but not DF boxes.

[Jodie]

That $35/mo/machine seems high. So I pulled an old electric bill from when I had 10 machines on G@H - 2 years ago, 1.1Ghz boxes, prior to the AC requirements. My bill went up $290/mo, or $29/mo/machine. That was in residential. Power prices have since nearly doubled here in CA.

My farm has since moved to commercial space, where power is sold at reduced commercial rates. So I would bet my estimate is dead-on...

After doing those numbers, I've now shot my P3-600's too. Not worth it.

I think in FarmMode - I'd personally (and arbitrarily) draw the line at 733-800Mhz.

[Scott Jensen]

Jodie,
Thanks for the numbers. And was that electricity bill including or excluding what you use for living there (TV, heating, etc.)? Or did you have a separate electricity meter for your computer farm?

ANYONE ELSE,
Do you get similar numbers? I know California is an expensive-electricity state, but not sure by how much. I myself am in Wisconsin.

---

Also, beside electricity, is there much expense to running a farm? Any difference between having high and/or low speed computers in it? If I could get the electricity free, would slow computers then make sense to run?

[Jodie]

I have five years of electric bills.

If I grow the number of machines in the house - it's relatively easy to subtract several months from that season from several months of the same season in the past.

Free electricity. Interesting concept.

As I pointed out - having to spend hours restarting clients versus seconds restarting clients has costs associated with it.

The most expensive part of running a real farm is cooling it. By far and away. Of course, with free electricity that might be much less of an issue... How many machines are you planning on running? More than ten or so and you'd best start making friends with a good electrician... Getting power to them in a way that doesn't pop breakers and doesn't cause fires (as Pelligrini about that one. . .) is a challange and a half.

How are you going to get monitors and keyboards on to them? ssh works great until the machine crashes. KVM? Price them before you consider them. A REALLY long monitor cable and a wrist-mounted keyboard is the best methodology I've found...

Space - where are you going to house them?

I'm not trying to be discouraging, rather assist in the planning of your farm based on personal experience...

Ten machines is easy. Twenty starts becoming challanging. Fifty is work. 100 is a fulltime job.

And how are you going to feel if you're running a hundred Pentiums, spending the effort, time and money - and someone with ten machines is slaughtering you in the stats? A hundred machines and you can't even make it into the top twenty? We have members on our team with twenty fast processors (P3-1G and faster) that are running around 25th in production...

[Digital Parasite]

Originally posted by Jodie
That $35/mo/machine seems high.

My god, that is insane!!! :shocked:

My power bill was about $60/month Canadian (so probably $40US) and that includes everything even 4 machines running 24/7 most with monitors too in a 2500 sq. foot house with 3 guys taking lots of showers (water heater), cooking at different times and opening the fridge all the time, drying clothes, lots of A/C in the summer and lots of heat in the Winter, so more power usage than a typical family.

Mental note: Never move to California...

Jeff.

[Jodie]

My base power bill (and remember I'm only home about four hours/day and it's just me and the puppy) for a 3800sqft house is $275/mo.

[K-A]

In Sweden I pay 0,59 SEK/kWh = 0,055 US$/kWh. If you have a power supply unit with 250 W, the electricity will cost you 0,055 US$/kWh * 0,25 kW = 0,0138 US$/hour. For 1 month this will end up at 0,0138 US$/hour * 24h *30 days = 10 US$/month.

A cost of 120 US$ a year is a lot in my opinon.

To Scott: Don't add any old machines, it's not worth it.

[Jodie]

Great power price!

What's your tax rate again? :p ;)

[Scott Jensen]

Jodie and others,

The computer farm I'm talking about is a project friends and I are looking into. What we're planning on doing is setting up a non-profit to receive donated old computers, network them together, and have them work for scientific research distributed computing projects like this one.

One of my friends is an experienced system administrator and the other is an experienced network administrator. Right now, my sys admin friend (best friend and roommate) has a four-port KVM farm on which he's testing and twinking our little concept. That little farm is set-up in his bedroom. Thankfully he likes his room hot. Once he's tested out a few things and got it working the way he wants, the net admin friend will come in and we'll take it to a remote system.

The remote system will be set up in our dry two-car garage in the cool basement of our apartment building. It has electrical outlets down there. The remote system will be able to update and replace the OS and dc programs without physically manipulating the boxes. Boxes will be added in a systematic way as follows:

1) Dusted out.
2) Hardware diagnosed.
3) Hard drive wiped.
4) Linux installed.
5) Remote network master program installed.
6) DC client program installed.

One computer for X number of computers will act as the firewall and report on non-working boxes. Another will be an "image" computer (his termnology) that will handle OS upgrades and replacements as well as dc client upgrades and switching to a new dc project.

Meanwhile, I'll work on getting us tax-exempt status. Anyone know of a kind-hearted charitable lawyer? :) Otherwise, it will cost $10,000. :(

Once the two of them have gotten the remote system set up the way they like it (consisting of 20 - 100 boxes) and the organization has tax-exempt status, I'll do the following:

1) Approach local, county, state, and federal agencies for vacant/abandoned warehouses/buildings (only need one to start) that we can get a $1 conditional lease on (if we use it for anything else, ownership reverts back to them).
2) Approach that building's power company and convince them to donate the electricity for the project. They say "no" and I go back looking for a building in a different power grid until a power company does agree.
3) Approach local high-speed internet provider to get free high-speed internet access for the project.
4) Approach building supply company to get free shelving, repair material, a temperture-triggered air conditioner, and a temperature-triggered floor space heater.
5) Approach computer manufacturers for free cabling and inexpensive (to them) network cards as well as cash to cover salaries and expenses I cannot get other companies and organization to donate. By allowing them to have the CPU box donation process part of the new computer purchase process, it will help sell computers for them (by lowering the cost of the computer by the tax write-off the consumer will get for donating their old CPU boxes) and thus the incentive for them to help the project.
6) Approach a parcel delivery company to pick up and deliver the donated computer free.
7) We go live.

Within easy commuting distance of where we live is the Badger Army Ammunition Plant that has been closed down since WWII. Lots of vacant buildings that could house computer farms and right now they're looking for a use for the place. The military will sell closed-down bases for $1 to educational and research organizations that can prove they'll make full use of the base.

Eventually, we aim to have buildings in every country in the world for their citizens to donate computers to.

Well, that's the gest of the idea. Talked to lots of people about it. Those knowledgeable in one area say their area should be easy to bring onboard but say one or more of the other areas will be hard. Interestingly, that's what all the others say about their area of expertise. :D

[IronBits]

I was using an average of 500 Kwhs before farming.
I hit over 2100 Kwh last summer and I had to kill off half the farm. ($400 per month power bills suck!)
I now have 14.6 GHz (10 AMD procs) and my power bill has climbed to $225 this past month. Consumption has risen to 1365 Kwh, and will slightly be higher than that next month because I have a new Dual XP1900+ that has been running for a week or so. (It's Dyyryath's fault!) ;)
Gas heat, stove and dryer. Lights are all florescent.
I'm in Southern California...

[dnar]

Originally posted by Jodie
That $35/mo/machine seems high. So I pulled an old electric bill from when I had 10 machines on G@H - 2 years ago, 1.1Ghz boxes, prior to the AC requirements. My bill went up $290/mo, or $29/mo/machine. That was in residential. Power prices have since nearly doubled here in CA.

My farm has since moved to commercial space, where power is sold at reduced commercial rates. So I would bet my estimate is dead-on...

After doing those numbers, I've now shot my P3-600's too. Not worth it.

I think in FarmMode - I'd personally (and arbitrarily) draw the line at 733-800Mhz.
Ahhh, TheMath (tm) at work again. :D

[dnar]

Has it really been 2 years since we started Genome@Home? LOL, time flies... :rolleyes:

[Jodie]

IronBits- so that puts you at $22.50/machine average... Power is a bit more expensive up north from you (ie. here) so we're on about the same page. Pretty well confirms my thoughts, thanks!


Dnar - seems like 2yrs for me - but I'm mistaken. 9 days short of a year in actuality. Went back through my bills. Very clear when I started getting aggressive about it - second week of Sept.

[dnar]

Originally posted by Jodie

Dnar - seems like 2yrs for me - but I'm mistaken. 9 days short of a year in actuality. Went back through my bills. Very clear when I started getting aggressive about it - second week of Sept.

jodie


Last updated on Fri Jul 19 20:47:14 PDT 2002

Member of team Overclockers-Network # 567443298

Current rank: 4 out of 19373 users
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Happy Anniversary! Where are we going for dinner honey? :cheers:

[Jodie]

I just came back from dinner - but there's still 10 days by that count... ;)

'Stars' is nice. :p

[Digital Parasite]

Originally posted by Jodie
My base power bill (and remember I'm only home about four hours/day and it's just me and the puppy) for a 3800sqft house is $275/mo.

Does the puppy perhaps play a lot of video games when you are gone? ;)

Wow, I was going to ask you what you and a puppy needed a 3800 sqft house for then I remembered: all the toys :cheers:

That must have cost a pretty penny in California too...

Jeff.

[jkeating]

I have a 2000 sq. ft. house in Texas w/ a newborn baby and mother-in-law that are home all day. I also have 2 AMDs at the house that run 24/7.

Last month's electric bill - $78.38 using a total of 963 Kwh.

Even $20/mo/PC seems a bit high for this area...

[Jodie]

Naw, the puppy comes to work every day... He'd probably get bored and eat the house and toys by the time I got home... ;)

I bought my first houses in the Bay Area, CA. Folsom/Sacramento area seems terribly inexpensive to me. But I guess it's what you're used to. We're relo-ing a new hire from Garland, Tx. He has a very nice custom 3500+sqft home there - pool, double corner lot, blah blah blah. He's a bit uptight because a 1200sqft fixer-upper in a lower-end area of Sac County is about 6x the cost.

But the Bay Area is about 4x the cost of Sac County.

From what I'm hearing, I should just buy half that town, and move my farm there. Pay for all the property in what I save the first month in electricity cost. ;) :jester: :crazy:

[McGoff]

back to the original question
I had a spare port on my home lan
so I dropped an old p133 32meg ram on
it works ok after the disk stops trashing (about 5mins)
on the work we are doing at present (85 residue) it produces
about 10,000 structures a day (24/7 headless box via VNC)
so figure the cost to run the free hardware for the output
against the cost buying new machines with money saved on power ??????

McGoff

[dnar]

Originally posted by McGoff
back to the original question
I had a spare port on my home lan
so I dropped an old p133 32meg ram on
it works ok after the disk stops trashing (about 5mins)
on the work we are doing at present (85 residue) it produces
about 10,000 structures a day (24/7 headless box via VNC)
so figure the cost to run the free hardware for the output
against the cost buying new machines with money saved on power ??????

McGoff
How did you manage to run DF on a p133?



From CompatibilityNotes.txt:-

Foldtraj should work on all Pentium II and higher or equivalent CPUs but may use instructions not supported by Pentiums, 486s, and earlier
Intel CPUs.

I certainly had no joy on a p166...

If you wish to make those old systems more effieicent, go diskless with NFS.

[Moira]

I just recently upgraded my one and only home computer from a Pentium 200. I was running folding on it, and still am.

With the current 135 residue protein I do about 5000 structures a day. Pretty pathetic.

But the hardware was just sitting there so I'm using it. I doubt it's ridiculously expensive to pay the electricity.

Moira

(team:The Moops)

[baja27]

here in Quebec is $7 mo per machine . (monitor off)

[Digital Parasite]

Hey Moira!

Good thing we don't live in California like Jodie! :cheers:

Jeff G.

[Moira]

Yup, if so, I'd probably not do DC at all. I'm too cheap.

;-)

Moira

[Scoofy12]

Here's another angle on power costs. Someone told me a box with a decent (300W) power supply consumed approximately 100W on average while crunching (ie high CPU activity, low disk activity, no monitor).
Here comes some simple numbers: (oh boy, math!)
100W * 24 hours/day * 30 days/month = 72kWh per month (note to people who don't remember science classes: units multiply and cancel just like numbers ;))
72kWh * your rate per Kwh (5.95 cents after 2000kWh residential here in Huntsville) = $4.28 per month per box.

Wow, that seems low compared to what you people have been saying, but the numbers aint lyin'. Am I getting practically free power (probably from TVA :)) or am I way low on the estimate per box?
Utility co-ops are a Good Thing(tm) :)

[Jodie]

Ummm -

The 300W rating on the power supply is DC wattage, correct?

You are probably missing out a bit on the conversion there...

Input on this 230W power supply is 8A @ 115v AC. So that leaves us at:

Watts = A * V = 8A*115v = 920W peak

That's the instantaneous power delivery ability of the power supply.

My AMD's run about 515W continuous measured. (or a bit more than half the instananeous delivery of the power supply. a good safe bet...)

515*24*30 = 371KW/hr/mo or 5.15 times what you had going there... $22ish/mo, no?

Still under CA's rates, though.

To confirm - check on the side of your power supply where it says "AC Input" There will be amperage at both 115v and 230v, most likely. And the 230v will be exactly half of the 115v... ;)

[dnar]

You are quite correct there Jodie, but may I add the folowing:-

[list=1]
You can use Watts assuming a power factor of 1.0 otherwise the old V * A formula is out. Unfortunately, switch mode power supplies don't run a perfect power factor of 1.0!!!
I don't beleive even a fast AMD XP system would draw anywhere near 8A from a 115V supply, not even as a peak figure!
With no monitor running, an average XP PC would not draw any more than 100 watts average/continuous... But then again maybe things are different with PersonallyOwnedProcessors (tm) :p
[/list=1]

[jpb1]

dnar is correct, there is no-way the system is going to pull the full rating of the power supply just running DC, especially so on a stripped down system that most farmers run.
The average (from my testing with an Ampmeter) runs between 1.25 to 1.50 amps per system, this is running headless, barebones XP 1700 and 1800's.

[Jodie]

Looks like I'm going to need to through an ammeter on the XPs and take a picture...

[dnar]

Originally posted by Jodie
Looks like I'm going to need to through an ammeter on the XPs and take a picture...
Cool. Make sure your not reading peak current as your energy supplier charges for energy used not peak current transients. :D

[Jodie]

And here I was going to set it for peak meter reading and throw it on the 100 KVA feed to the building. Learn something new every day, I guess... :rolleyes: :moon: :p

[Scoofy12]

dnar brings up a good point of course. I of all people (the EE major) ought to have taken power factor into consideration :)
I imagine the load would be capacitive for the motherboard, but inductive for the fans... eh, i dont even wanna think about it :D

If we guess 1.375A from jpb1 (i'll assume this is RMS?) at 120V RMS, that's 165W at a power factor of 1.0. I guess if we think from this perspective a reduced pf is actually beneficial to the user, since for that 1.375A you use only about 124W at a pf of .75. (/me wonders if power companies' minimum pf requirements apply to residential areas?)

I can't believe it draws too much more than this, because the power bill for my roommate and me for June (at the rate i mentioned previously) was $41, and that includes air conditioning for a 2BR apartment, hot water, etc as well as 2 computers that ran 24/7 all month (my homebuilt with an OC'd Duron at 938 on a 300W P/S and my roommate's P3 500 on some small crappo Dell P/S). I can't imagine the computers amounted to more than half of that even, compared to the a/c (this is Alabama in June, mind you) and water heater. I wonder how much difference the architecture and speed makes?

[dnar]

Originally posted by Scoofy12
dnar brings up a good point of course. I of all people (the EE major) ought to have taken power factor into consideration :)
I imagine the load would be capacitive for the motherboard, but inductive for the fans... eh, i dont even wanna think about it :D

Only guessing, but I doubt the secondary side of the PSU has any influence on mains power factor. The mains side a common switchmode is simply a full-wave bridge rectifier looking into a nice juicy set of electrolytic capacitors. I would say then that the mains supply see's a capacitive load, with current leading voltage.

[Jodie]

What ^^^^^^^^ he said. :D

The mains is supplying the rectifier circuit. Beyond that, it's the PS' problem to deal with regulation... (and the secondary regulator circuit feeding CPUs on many modern Mobos...)

[bwkaz]

What someone should really do is put an RMS ammeter in the mains side of the power supply, and look at RMS current averaged over an hour or so of continuous crunching. That way it doesn't matter if it's capacitive, inductive, (plain resistive?), or any other kind of load... ;)

Then, since the current is RMS and the voltage (115 or 120v) is also RMS, (as was said above,) the RMS power is just V * I. And you multiply that by 24 hrs/day * 30 (or so) days / month * $0.51 / kWh (or whatever the rate is).

My point is, measure the current instead of guessing it. :p

[dnar]

Originally posted by bwkaz
What someone should really do is put an RMS ammeter in the mains side of the power supply, and look at RMS current averaged over an hour or so of continuous crunching. That way it doesn't matter if it's capacitive, inductive, (plain resistive?), or any other kind of load... ;)

Then, since the current is RMS and the voltage (115 or 120v) is also RMS, (as was said above,) the RMS power is just V * I. And you multiply that by 24 hrs/day * 30 (or so) days / month * $0.51 / kWh (or whatever the rate is).

My point is, measure the current instead of guessing it. :p
Yay! (Measure all 8 amps of it) :D

[IronBits]

I want pics!!! :D
Just how much $$$ does it cost us, per box/CPU, here in CA. Jodie? That's all I wanna know. ;)
You guys are giving me a headache with all that math stuff. :confused: :D

[Jodie]

Originally posted by dnar

Yay! (Measure all 8 amps of it) :D

Woah there, tiger.

I never claimed it was PULLING 8A. I correct the misnomer that a "300W power supply" was only capable of drawing 300W. I used the 280W PS that was laying in front of me to do it. That particular supply will pop its fuse if it pulls better than 8A for very long. Period.

[Starfish]

Perhaps we should buy a few windmills or a group of solar panels for our DC needs :jester:

Join us now...and get xx Wh of electricity for free :D

[pointwood]

I could arrange that (the windmill) - I have a friend that works at the largest windmill company in the world (the windmill companies in Denmark have about 50% of the world marked and I believe this company have about 20% of the US marked!), so just say when and I'll get a nice big 2-3MW Windmill placed in your backyard :D :p

[Halon50]

How much would equipment and installation cost for one of those 3MW models?

[dnar]

Originally posted by pointwood
I could arrange that (the windmill) - I have a friend that works at the largest windmill company in the world (the windmill companies in Denmark have about 50% of the world marked and I believe this company have about 20% of the US marked!), so just say when and I'll get a nice big 2-3MW Windmill placed in your backyard :D :p
Go wind! Why oh why are the 3rd world countries adopting nuclear power before wind I will never know...

Checkout these shots taken of the Albany windfarm being built: http://dnaresearch.com.au/images/work/abb/windfarm/abb_windfarm.html

[Paratima]

Un-freakingReal!! Great pix. Thanks, dnar. :thumbs:

[jkeating]

Here's an article about a new wind farm in Britain

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/2103320.stm

[pointwood]

Originally posted by Halon50
How much would equipment and installation cost for one of those 3MW models? Currently I believe 2MW is the biggest, but I know 3MW should soon be a reality.

The price? Hmm...I don't acutally know the price but I believe it is above $3 mill.

Such windmills are *huge* - the "tower" is up in about 60 meters and weights around 50 ton (50.000 kilo).

The total ground pressure of these windmills are around 500 ton! (and Vestas, which is the company my friend works for, is considered making some of the less heavy mills in the marked!)

[Starfish]

Originally posted by pointwood
I could arrange that (the windmill) - I have a friend that works at the largest windmill company in the world (the windmill companies in Denmark have about 50% of the world marked and I believe this company have about 20% of the US marked!), so just say when and I'll get a nice big 2-3MW Windmill placed in your backyard :D :p

Well, the fact is that our backyard is quite large...but not large enough to place a windmill :rolleyes:

The landscape would be ideal though..

I live in the northern part of The Netherlands and when I look around 360 degrees along the horizon from our attic I see about 100 - 120 windmills in action!

Of course we, the Dutch, have a reputation too when it comes to windmills .... in fact we live in our country the way it is now because windmills made it possible to (re)claim land from the water again :cool: (like shown here (http://www.kinderdijk.nl/windmill_1.htm) & told here (http://users.adelphia.net/~ganema/genealogy/netherlands/dutchwindmills.htm) )


Well, before going further OT. I'll stop my small history lesson here ;) :D

Oh, of course our electricity generating windmills don't look like the images above; those are obviously also modern turbines :thumbs: