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Dyyryath
09-15-2002, 02:16 PM
Hmmm...seems like the team jumping thing is annoying people again. I feel like I've been reading these accusations and objections since late 1999 when I was at ars technica and SETI was all the rage.

Now I'm in a different team and working on a different project. You know what, though? I still feel exactly the same way about it:

If the project allows it, then it's OK.

I actually find it kind of interesting. It lends an element of surprise to what would otherwise be a much slower give and take between teams.

Besides, doesn't anyone else see the possibilities for strategy here? Come to think of it...I think it's GREAT. :)

Now, as for recruiting from other teams...

EVERYONE does it. :D

If guzzler decided to come to Free-DC, would anyone here feel like we had 'recruited' him? No, we'd all just jump up and down and be happy he was here. ;)

Why he decided to come might be a mystery to us, but ultimately, it would have to be a feeling that for one reason or another this was a better place to be at that point in time. Hence, he was 'recruited' by some aspect of this team.

Was it a different structure in the forums?

Was it that someone else he knew came over?

Was he given a friendly, private invitation to come if he wanted to?

Did he just want to hang out with the cool kids for a change? ;)

Regardless of the reason, something about this team would have made him come.

Every team strives to gain new members based on these types of things, and they'd being lying if they said they didn't think some of those members were going to come from other teams. Free-DC and Team Stir Fry are no different.

If users are joing Team Stir Fry from other teams, I say, Congratulations, TSF! They're obviously doing something right to attract new members.

The ONLY thing that I find 'distasteful', is spamming the members of other teams with requests to join your group. When I say 'spamming' I mean exactly that.

A good (though not the only example) would be unrequested, unwanted posting in the forums of other teams, blatantly attempting to get users to switch teams.

Now, I came from ars, and I still consider it my long lost home, and I still know the majority of the people there. They just wouldn't do something like that.

So, unless someone can show me where ars is actively 'spamming' other teams to gain users, how about we just tip our hats to them and congratulate them on their new users. :thumbs:

Then, once we're done with that, let's use a little strategy of our own and send IB over there dressed like pointwood and see if he can figure out what it is they're doing so 'right', so we can do it, too! :D :D

Paratima
09-15-2002, 02:28 PM
You think IB can get into a little slinky skirt like that? :D

Dyyryath
09-15-2002, 02:30 PM
LOL!

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

Arrrggghhhh, LOOK AWAY, LOOK AWAY!! :D

FoBoT
09-15-2002, 02:35 PM
Originally posted by Dyyryath
If the project allows it, then it's OK.


that IS the bottom line

if you still don't like it, you got 3 choices

1- stop doing XYZ project that allows it and switch to ZYX project that doesn't allow it

2- contact the project owners and express your displeasure, maybe they will change it? he haw, probably not (and making changes like that after a project is born is more problematic than leaving it)

3- start your own DC project that doesn't allow switching



or sumptin

ulv
09-15-2002, 03:39 PM
Good to read this, Dyyryath :)
:thumbs:

JTrinkle
09-15-2002, 05:52 PM
Now, I came from ars, and I still consider it my long lost home, and I still know the majority of the people there. They just wouldn't do something like that.

So, unless someone can show me where ars is actively 'spamming' other teams to gain users, how about we just tip our hats to them and congratulate them on their new users


how about this? (http://www.free-dc.org/forum/showthread.php3?s=&threadid=1414)

>/sarcasm mode on

"They were just joking" :bs:

</sarcasm mode off

-JTrinkle
returning soon

Angus
09-15-2002, 08:58 PM
I think it is really poor taste to have a major player associated with the project move their account to one of the participating teams. (JFK and Howell Labs - part of SLRI).

Perhaps we should ask for the Larry the Foot account, or since we were in 1st place for so long, the Brian the Fist account. Why not? If ars gets one, we should too, otherwise they should ask them to politely take their account back to the SLRI group.

Chinasaur
09-15-2002, 09:02 PM
Please explain.....WTF is going on???

Did someone associated with the project step outside their own team and choose to dump strucs on a team .. like TSF?

That would be a gross lapse of judgement if true...:mad:

Angus
09-15-2002, 09:08 PM
That is exactly what happened. 71.7 million units worth, from the SLRI in-house labs moved to TSF.

Real fair, isn't it....

Paratima
09-15-2002, 10:38 PM
Y'all seem to have missed the point(s) made in this thread by Dyyryath and FoBoT. :rolleyes:

Go back & read it again from the top, please.

IronBits
09-16-2002, 12:10 AM
This happens ALL the time, especially in this particular project.
I've seen before and we will continue to see it...
/me shrugs -- just part of the game ;)

This is not a we/they contest, nor is it a 'us' vs 'them' either...

We taunt each other into putting more computing power into the project, which is the real goal, no matter where it comes from or what 'team name' it falls under. :D

We will all feel good about ourselves WHEN the cures start being found. And if we are not around WHEN it does start happening, those of us that are still here, will remember the sacrifices you/we all have made. And if not, so what, we are doing this for ourselves right? No one forces us to do this kind of stuff.
Well most of the time anyways ;)

We should remain focused on the main objective in all of this, which is the GOAL of the project we chose FIRST !
Everything and anything else that happens in this process is secondary.
Drop the 'we/they' thing and we find that we are similar in our goals...
To run over the person just ahead ... just kidding :D
We may choose not to run a project because the way someone keeps score, the attitudes of the folks that make up the owners/members of the project, the way scores change unexpectedly because someone changes teams, or as some have done, do not chose a team because of the negative rucus that rears it's head now and again.
Also we may choose a project because of the nice folks and the way they behave that draws you to a team, but certainly, one's mind has been made up to run a project first, what club or team you choose to hang out with to make new friends, or meet up with some old friends, is ours to make, or as many have done, chose not to join a team but do the project anyways.

The 'games' (and that is ALL IT HAS EVER BEEN) have always been around to help keep an otherwise very boring task, interesting and alive. If you can't find an outside Team to have a gauntlet with, we turn inward amongst ourselfs to have one.
If you don't, may I suggest you give it a try? It's alot fun! :)
And keep your eye focused on the real target and go jab your buddy and see if you can get someone, anyone, whether on a Team or not, to kick in a little more, to crunch harder, to give that little bit more...
I see there has been a huge increase in total work being completed now, more than there was last month...
Get Ready to Rumble ... Rock On!!! :D
:thumbs:
The only thing different than having all your friends from around the neighborhood getting together at the park on week-ends to play tackle football (insert sport of choice) and then choosing sides, is this game doesn't seem to end. ;)
Have fun and kick it! :smoking:
:notworthy

Angus
09-16-2002, 01:23 AM
That's a lot of the old 'We're in it only for the science' rhetoric.

If that was the case, the projects wouldn't keep score, there would be no teams, no stats, no competition.

And the production would plummet like a rock. and some other project would get the computing power. You would have a few folks running it for the 'pretty' screensaver, and a few dedicated micro-biologists, but not the raw power that is brought to bear now.

The competition is the only thing that gets the production... and when the competition is rigged, it is no longer fun, nor competition.

You want people to admit and accept that you're in it for the science, then admit that there are many in it only for the race, and respect and not minimize their reasons for running the project.

Angus
09-16-2002, 01:39 AM
... and, for the record, I firmly believe that intra-team gauntlets are the most ridiculous, devisive, annoying thing to have happen to the DC community. One of the major reasons I left ars, and the others do not bear repeating in polite company.

Dyyryath
09-16-2002, 02:09 AM
Originally posted by Angus
That's a lot of the old 'We're in it only for the science' rhetoric.

Not when I'm saying it, it's not. I'm only *vaguely* interested by the science involved.

I'd say that 99% of my interest in DC is motivated by competition.

However...I try not to get too carried away with it, either. I couldn't stand for cheating, or the questionable practice of people blatantly attempting to recruit from other teams, but other than that, I'm pretty easy going about things.

Now, about this accusation that the JFK & Howell Labs account is part of the project's team...

Does anyone KNOW that this is the case? Until someone does, let's not get too excited, OK?

I'd agree that having people involved in the project picking sides is probably not a good thing, but let's see if it's really happening before we get too riled up.

Angus
09-16-2002, 02:29 AM
per whilden @ ars:


With a little bit of research I noted that JFK and Howell Labs Structural Biology comes to TSF from SLRI Hogue!

in this thread :

http://arstechnica.infopop.net/OpenTopic/page?a=tpc&s=50009562&f=122097561&m=6740922925


SLRI is Howard's organization, and Howell Lab another of the research resources there.

pointwood
09-16-2002, 03:25 AM
Great post Dyyryath, I've until now more or less hated the team jumping because I thought it was stupid. I still don't quite like it, but your post have certainly changed the way I think about it. Thanks!

Paratima: Kinky little skirt?! I'm not wearing any kinky little ski..?! WTF!? Who has dressed me up like this when I got drunk last night?! :spank: :rotfl: :jester:

JTrinkle: My post in that thread you link to was certainly a joke and nothing but a joke, I made it once when I was chatting to IronBits on IRC in #lobby where he asked me to try to get xj to crunch again and I made a bit of fun out of it. I find it odd that I have to defend that post though, since I think it is pretty obvious (epsecially considering the last line in my post), that is not serious. I'm pretty sure MAD-ness didn't mean it seriously either.

In regards to our new members, we are just as "confused" as you are in regards to why they have joined TSF right now and whether they'll stay.

We are not going to complain or feel bad though. We are happy they have joined, welcome them and hope they'll stay - isn't that quite normal?

Ps. You did nice in the last update on statsman, beating us we >5 million :cool: :thumbs: We still beat you in the daylies though, so you should be happy about these small victories ;) :p :rotfl:

Paratima
09-16-2002, 12:17 PM
It wasn't the skirt itself, pointwood. I mean, on you, it doesn't look, well, not like REALLY bad. But Dyyryath said:
send IB over there dressed like pointwoodNow THAT sounds bad! IronBits and that little skirt... I mean, the laws of physics... :scared:

pointwood
09-16-2002, 01:29 PM
:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

MAD-ness
09-16-2002, 07:13 PM
JTrinkle: I could have sworn in that thread (or another around the same time) someone here 'suggested' that Guzzler join Free-DC.

It was all in good fun (or so I thought) but if you want to want to take things literally, atleast be consistent.

As far as the rest of it, I really don't want to be part of any conflict between Ars and Free-DC.

If I hadn't gotten hooked on DC via TSF I would put my structures with Free-DC since you guys have done so much for the project. However, since TSF is my original and permanent home, I can't do that.

If you ever have a project other than DF (or ECCp109) where you need a temporary boost in production or could benefit from some meager additional production, I would be glad to provide what I can.

This project really wouldn't be what it is without what you guys have done (specifically but not exclusively - Dyy and IB).

BTW, I think Howard answered about JFK and Howell Labs in the official forum.

theseum
09-16-2002, 09:47 PM
here's the official statement about the JFK team switch: http://bane.free-dc.org/forum/showthread.php3?threadid=1547

It seems to me that there's no reason why somebody who decided to run DF in their lab shouldn't be allowed to put the points where they choose just because they are across the street from SLRI.

Auritania
09-16-2002, 11:01 PM
Originally posted by Angus
That is exactly what happened. 71.7 million units worth, from the SLRI in-house labs moved to TSF.

Real fair, isn't it....

I just leveled the playing field...... now go prove that TSF doesn't deserve to be #1 or deal with being #2.

Paratima
09-17-2002, 12:27 AM
That wasn't necessary, Auritania.

Chinasaur
09-17-2002, 07:01 AM
I agree with Paratima...not necessary. If the thread annoyed you...don't read it. No need to walk off your teams roster.

FreeDC team members expressing themselves on their own board does not require comments or actions from anyone else.


:cheers:

dragongoddess
09-17-2002, 09:11 AM
I hope I'm not out of line here. I was just wondering if the Free_DC ECCP team would like to come over and help us defeat the DPC. You know join up.

FireCracker
09-17-2002, 11:24 AM
Quoted from above
The ONLY thing that I find 'distasteful', is spamming the members of other teams with requests to join your group. When I say 'spamming' I mean exactly that.

A good (though not the only example) would be unrequested, unwanted posting in the forums of other teams, blatantly attempting to get users to switch teams.
---

Dyyryath, is DG's posting a good example of spaming?

Just a question, I'm here to learn at the knees of the
Free-DC gods.

FC

fRaGgLe
09-17-2002, 12:19 PM
The whole DC community is made up of people that run Dc projects for their own reason.

I was a stats whore, I have run seti since its inception, I have over 40,000 WU completed, I love the bragging rights that that affords, that is, after-all a shit-load of computing effort.

I joined TLC a couple of years ago, because they had the best stats, they had the best people, and they had the best forum that could help me get more from my machines.

I spent thousands of dollars on PC's and put vast efforts into borging my work machines, spending many hours doing so.

We fought our way into the lead, and we had a ball, I had many private battles - JDAW was a constant victim of mine for over a year.

Then it started to change, ARS's emphasis changed from SETI to many otehr projects, this was fine, I tried most of them, but the distilation of the SETI effort meant that the stats where no longer as important to ARS, the forum became cluttered (my view) with none-SETI (and therefore of little interest to me) traffic. The cheating exposure, and the general apathy towards the threat of SETI.Germany and SETI.NL.

Then finally the Caeser posts.

Frankly I had had enough, the team that two years ago I loved, I could no longer even get excited about, the forum that was full of usefull information had run its course, Caesers abusive e-mails to me finished the whole thing, and I left.

In leaving I took away my 40K workunit.

I could have joined a serious competitor - SETI.Germany or Seti.NL, where I have virtual friends, but in the end I moved here.

What I do with my WU's is my business, what I do with my computing power is up to me, if I want to move teams and influence outcomes, that is up to me.

I am often reminded that its a free world, and that brand loyalty is possibly the most sought after possession, after all once you establish that, you trap a customer for life. Well the DC teams need to establish brand loyalty, but not though guilt, or ego tripping, but my being a nice place to stay, and hope that this brand loyalty can rub off on others.

Rather than bitch and moad when people do stuff, establish the team, establish the moral, and the brand.

If I am talking crap, I appologise, I dislocated my finger, and the drugs a screwing with my mind a little. :crazy:

Jetta
09-17-2002, 12:44 PM
very good post frag! I couldnt of said it better, I am not even taking any pain killers! :D

dragongoddess
09-17-2002, 03:25 PM
Firecracker are you telling me a member of this forum that I cannot post here? Is that what you are trying to say?

I didn't come over here in an an attempt to get members of your team to jump ship. I asked if the WHOLE team would like to come over and join us for this battle and under your NAME.

I asked this since so many of the Free-Dc people were ARS people and some still are like myself. I asked this question here and over at OCN as I am also a member there. I just thought you all as a team might want to get involved. If I knew people would get bent out of shape over the invite I wouldn't have turned my house upsidedown looking for my password for this site.

I didn't know this had turned into a private club

Jetta
09-17-2002, 04:01 PM
dragongoddess. I dunno, I must of read it wrong, but it sure looked to me that you were asking everyone here to go and join TVM. Free-dc has a team in eccp, so I am not sure what it is that you are trying to accomplish by posting something like that here, other than make ars look like spammers, which is something we do not want to be known as.

FoBoT
09-17-2002, 04:08 PM
Originally posted by fRaGgLe

If I am talking crap, I appologise, I dislocated my finger, and the drugs a screwing with my mind a little. :crazy:

no crap there, that is all good

:thumbs: fRaGgLe nice post! :)

FoBoT
09-17-2002, 04:25 PM
Originally posted by dragongoddess
..so many of the Free-Dc people were ARS people and some still are like myself...

but you know some of us aren't "Ars people"

my post count/time since registering on Ars makes me an

Ars Centurion
registered: March 04, 2001
Posts: 763


but the vast bulk of that was visiting the Agora, buying/selling/trading hardware

i only visited the DC forum when bored or looking for DC info about XYZ client or whatever

i did put some G@H units on the Ars team, I was sorta "teamless" at the time, but i don't consider myself an "ex-Ars" like many here

so what is my point?
:jester:
i don't know, i don't care if you post here about helping some team with ECCP, it won't influence me one way or the other, i put my work on all projects where ever i feel like! :crazy:

y'all have a nice day and try to get out of the house and go help somebody in "real life" with something they need "real help" with, like cutting the lawn of an elderly lady in your neighborhood, then come back here and see if you don't have a better disposition :)

cheers! :cheers:

ECL
09-17-2002, 04:57 PM
Speaking only for myself, I am not interested in rejoining any of the Ars teams. I am aware they still exist. I am aware one or more of their teams is always engaged in some life-or-death struggle with some other team. I am very much aware that many at Ars consider Free-DC to be some kind of illegitimate splinter group. It amuses them to act as though we're a bunch of wayward children who will inevitably return to the Ars fold.

I chose to join Free-DC because I was tired of the constant "switch to this project or we're all dead" mentality at Ars, among many other things.

When I look at our standings on various projects, I'm amazed that such a tiny group is able to compete so effectively in so many projects against teams that are many multiples of our size. We're spread a little thin at the moment, and slipping on some projects, but that's something the individual members of our group will have to figure out for themselves. Perhaps there are other people out there who like our underdog vibe and will come join us. If so, they're welcome to come and take a look at us and make their own call.

WRT to the recent team jumping controversies and the over-dramatic posturing both here and at Ars, I think we need to back away from this destructive grandstanding and take a longer-term view. Most of these projects are multi-year efforts, and teams will change rankings many times for many reasons. Users will change teams, again for many reasons. We really can't stop it, so we have to live with it, even if it doesn't always work in our favor. Personally, I'd like to "win" at DF due to raw crunching ability (and I know many at Ars agree) rather than through a sudden influx of new members, but I'd also like to believe that these people are making their new allegiances carefully, and that they intend to stay and be productive.

Free-DC sat on top of the DF stats for several months, and we've been displaced. Too bad. We'll probably take first place back as soon as Halon50 wafts back to KWSN. Even if he doesn't, Free-DC is still a strong team and we'll take back first place eventually. I hope. We might take and lose first place 100 times in the course of this project. That's life. We'll all have to deal with it as our individually varying levels of maturity allow.

This is Free-DC. My understanding is that this is a place where you can choose to participate in the local teams or contribute elsewhere. I like to think that anyone can post here as long as they're not making a blatant attempt to lure crunchers to their team. It was inappropriate for Larry Loen to post his Seti appeal here a few months ago, and it was equally inappropriate for DragonGoddess to treat us as a reserve Ars ECCp team. There's a difference between jokingly suggesting someone join us, and an outright recruiting appeal. We do know the difference, so please respect the choice we made to crunch for Free-DC and not Ars. I'm not angry, just a little frustrated that so many at Ars can't accept our separate existence with grace. Don't get bent out of shape, just recognize that you can't choose where we put our computing power, money and time.

Team membership ultimately boils down to making choices. I chose Free-DC and still do, even though we're not #1 in 50 different projects. I routinely read a lot of different forums and know enough about the other teams to believe I came to the right place.

But that's just me. Your milage may vary.

Dyyryath
09-17-2002, 05:15 PM
Very eloquent for someone who used to 'toss dwarves'. ;) :D

BTW, we should probably get you an avatar of some sort...would you like one?

theseum
09-17-2002, 05:18 PM
i don't know whether or not you are serious dragongoddess, but if you are you should probably have done the following:

a)consulted the "leaders" of both teams, expecially of free-dc which has more of a defined leadership than we do.
b)consulted TVM
c)and finally if all those people approved, posted it in the correct free-dc forum (this is the DF forum, there is a separate ECCp forum.)

I would say that anything less is poor form. And it is easy to inperpret your post as a blatent attempt to steal Free-DC members.

But I think that this thread has pretty much run its course... I for one have said my bit and read what other people have to say and I am going to let it die.

dragongoddess
09-17-2002, 06:40 PM
Yes I was serious. I just thought it would be a little more fun if the free dc people came over to play also. I did not know I had violated some rule. BTW I looked in all of my manuals and I cannot seem to find that rule.

If I was over here trying to lure people away I would not do it in public I would do it via email. But what did I do. I put out an invention to an entire team to come play if they so wished.
I put it in this thread because it was called something like team jumping or something else of that sort.

Jetta
09-17-2002, 07:40 PM
Dragongoddess, ok, I think I see where you are coming from. Unfortunately, without first asking the team leaders for something like this, it is frowned upon, usually called spamming, like sending mail to someone elses mailing list without getting permission of the list owner.

hmmm, in real world terms, asking a group that has a team if they want to come and play, is kinda like asking the next town overs football team if you could borrow the front line for a couple games, to help you beat up your opponents better.

I agree that some kind of friendly competion between the teams could be a lot of fun, but it is something that should be left to the team leaders to decide upon.

hope that made sense,. :)

FoBoT
09-17-2002, 08:11 PM
Originally posted by dragongoddess
Yes I was serious. I just thought it would be a little more fun if the free dc people came over to play also. I

those of us on the Free-DC ECCP team are already having fun and already playing. you seem to suggest that our ECCP team in #15 spot is somehow "invalid" because we are not #1,2 or 3??? :confused:

i don't see how we could have more fun if our ECCP points went for your team

that is a
non sequitur.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

non se·qui·tur Pronunciation Key (nn skw-tr, -tr)
n.
An inference or conclusion that does not follow from the premises or evidence.
A statement that does not follow logically from what preceded it.




and BTW :|ot|:

MAD-ness
09-17-2002, 08:31 PM
Wow, this got way out of hand.

I think it is clear where the majority of members at both Ars and Free-DC stand on the issue of recruiting from other teams.

However, 'teams' are a group of a 'individuals' and individuals are free to do what they desire, which doesn't always coincide with what the team as a whole desires.

Such is life.

I expect both teams to swap #1 multiple times in the coming months/years.

That is part of the FUN and part of what I have been so excited about the last month or so as TSF actually began to creep closer to Free-DC.

Lets not ruin the fun that both teams SHOULD be having as we frantically ratchet up production in our attempts to out-do each other.

:)

FoBoT
09-17-2002, 08:34 PM
Originally posted by MAD-ness

I expect both teams to swap #1 multiple times in the coming months/years.


not if i can help it! :moon:

we just gotta :spank: some people harder
:crazy:


j/k :jester:

Moogie
09-18-2002, 01:25 AM
I pretty much figured from the beginning that I wouldn't add anything to this post because I'm a small player here but changed my mind.

Looking at it from a small contributors point of view I don't have a lot of strong views. As far as team swapping, I'm more or less on the fence about that issue. Yes, I'm competitive, but I'm more competitive because I am part of a "team". Let's face it, my leaving would cause little more than a blip on your radar but that's not something that bothers me. From my position, I get a lot of pleasure watching you guys and just being a part of it all. When someone leaves a team, for whatever reasons (hopefully not negative) then so be it. The fact of the matter is, the team is still a team.

Free-DC has made me feel welcome from day one. I've met a lot of really good people here and am very happy to call them my friends. It doesn't matter here how much you crunch, just that you do.

When I joined this project, first on another team and now here, I was aware of the fact that when you left, your stuff went with you. That's never really bothered me because I've always felt that as long as you were crunching it didn't really matter what team. Yeah, I enjoy the competition and that is probably my strongest motivator. That it helps a good cause...that's a plus. Can't beat that.

Sometimes, the team jumping can add a little spice to a race that is tight. The positions change constantly and that's part of the whole game. Isn't it KWSN (correct me if I'm wrong) that has about 4 different teams because if they put their whole team together, they'd blow us all out of the water and what would be the point in that, and where would be the fun? I was talking to a fellow cruncher about this earlier today (who shall remain nameless cuz he'd prolly thwack me over the head with a haddock otherwise). This keeps the competition going as well as the interest.

Spamming is another matter, but then again, I just tend to ignore the attempts. The friendly (joking ones) can be alot of fun. Blatant spamming is annoying but again, I ignore it and move on.

When things like this happen, it bothers me. I know it's pretty normal. Most projects/teams I've been involved in have little uprisings (for lack of a better term) from time to time. That kind of thing is bound to happen. When it does, I try to keep myself focused on what is really important. For one, DF...the cause. But more importantly, in my mind, the whole teamwork aspect..the competition, the goading (friendly)...the FUN! Being a part of it.

Ok..i've rambled enough. Not sure if any of this made sense. I kind of wanted to put a little one's input in here.

Hey..Free-DC may be #2 now, but as soon as I figure out how to get that blender, George Foreman Grill and washing machine to crunch (not to mention my new laptop)..#1 is toast! ;)

Ciao4now!
:D

IronBits
09-24-2002, 01:14 AM
Originally posted by Paratima
It wasn't the skirt itself, pointwood. I mean, on you, it doesn't look, well, not like REALLY bad. But Dyyryath said:Now THAT sounds bad! IronBits and that little skirt... I mean, the laws of physics... :scared:
That would be Pointwood on the left. ;)
I told you I couldn't fit into any of his dresses. :D
http://www.dbestern.com/files/reddress_pw_ib.jpg
red dress

Moogie
09-24-2002, 01:21 AM
Erm IronBits...something is lacking. I think you need to add the fishnet stockings. You know, the one's that Dyy lent Pointwood last month. :D

pointwood
09-24-2002, 06:35 AM
:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

Paratima
09-24-2002, 07:42 AM
URGH! :scared:

See what you started, Dyyryath. Now they're skirting the issue!

We'll all probably spend the rest of our lives trying to forget this! Pass the bottle, please. HURRY!

Moogie
09-24-2002, 08:50 AM
Originally posted by Paratima
URGH! :scared:

See what you started, Dyyryath. Now they're skirting the issue!

We'll all probably spend the rest of our lives trying to forget this! Pass the bottle, please. HURRY!

"Skirting" the issue? Please tell me that wasn't intentional. :D LOL! That was bad.

As for the bottle...I'm not sure how much that would help. I keep having visions of PW in skirts and Dyy owning, much less wearing, the fishnet stockings. I've had to increase my meds in order to sleep. :)

pointwood
09-24-2002, 08:53 AM
Blame it all on IronBits - he was the one that insisted on getting someone to take that photo and post it here.

:p :D