Some Help With Stats

[Dyyryath]

I've been finishing up all the basic features on my Stats System for DF (http://stats.zerothelement.com) over the last month and I've finally reached a point where I'm more or less satisfied with the 'basic functionality' of the site.

I've got a few more additions (most notably the Virtual Teams stuff), but aside from them, it probably wouldn't be too far off the mark to say I'm in a 'code freeze' of sorts before I begin adding the advanced stuff.

Over the last couple of weeks, I've used my stats, statsman's stuff, and reader50's stuff over at Team MacNN extensively and I'm coming to the conclusion that the more 'features' you add, the less usable things become. Lots of features is certainly a *good* thing, but it can be easy to add things in a way that makes everything sort of 'blur together' to the point where you either (a) can't find what you're looking for, or (b) overlook something that you might have really liked.

Right now I'm preparing to roll out themes support for the site, so it seems like now is a good time to consider the issue of usability.

What I'm looking for are suggestions on what people like and don't like about the current layout. Do the colors not work for you? Are the fonts too big/small? Is the navigation too hard to understand? Are some thing too hard to find or not obvious enough? Do the labels for certain pieces of information not make any sense?

The current layout seems OK to me, but that's probably because I'm the one who designed it. Over the years I've found that what works for me, may not make any sense to someone else. ;)

So, if anybody has any complaints, suggestions, or comments, I'd love to hear them. The new theme support can do a whole lot more than just change the 'look' of the pages, so if you have something you'd like to see done differently, let's hear it...

[FoBoT]

overall, it is fine

the main feature that you provide over the raw "official" stats to me is rate/prediction of overtake/being overtaken (this feature should be easy to get to since it is one of the things that you can't get from the raw stats)

thank you

[IronBits]

What FoBoT said. :D
:thumbs:

[MAD-ness]

I hate to even come close to criticising the stats, but since you asked... ;)

One little thing that bothers me a little (and others might prefer it this way) is when you click on a team name (say, from the team rankings page) it takes you directly to the detailed stats for the team (recent production, leaves/joins/etc) rather than to the listing of the members. Intuitively, from your previous stats and other guy's stats I would think it would go to the user rankings for the team and the detailed stats would be somewhere you linked to from there.

A minor quibble and it may well be the method which is prefered.

[Dyyryath]

I've been thinking about that myself, and I think I may have a 'compromise solution' of sorts.

However, I'd like to hear what everyone else thinks. If most people would like it going straight to the user lists with a link to the detailed stats from there, I certainly don't mind changing it. I could even make it an option in the left hand nav so you could set it either way depending on your preference...

Also, please feel free to 'criticize'. It's the only way they'll get better. :D

[MAD-ness]

BTW, thanks for the info on the total users list thing.

Do you think you might be able to spare the time to work on making less dumber-er? :)

[Dyyryath]

LOL :D

If I could help you out, MAD-ness, I certainly would, but I've got my hands full over here just keeping myself from saying stupid things. :D

[MAD-ness]

Sigh.

Left to my fate, eh?

:)

[pointwood]

/me taps the person next to him on the shoulder: "Pssst - am I dreaming or did he just say *basic* features???!" :shocked: :shocked: :shocked: :D

I think they are working fine right now. I do agree with MAD-ness though. Another thing I just noticed yesterday is that when using the Custom Graph function, you can't save the result (the graph image) - is that because of performance or?

Besides that, you're right - complexity and usabililty isn't best friends :bang: I think you have done a very good job so far though :thumbs:

[ulv]

:D Very good stats :D I primarly use them as FoBoT mentioned.
But I agree with Madness on the team- clicking thing.

[MAD-ness]

Another little nitpick about something that I am used to seeing other places:

On the User Page for teams (the list), would it possible to have a column at the top (above the #1 ranking member) that displayed the totals for the team?

I know that this information is displayed elsewhere, but it is nice to have it there for quick reference. With your old stats I got in the habit of checking that. The new TEam list page makes team comparisions faster and easier, so the summary row at the top on the user page isn't as needed, but it is sort of nice, IMO.

[Dyyryath]

Good point, I'll add it tonight.

I'll probably also do some 'experimenting' with which page is linked to the team names in the 'All Teams Page' tonight.

[m0ti]

Not much to say.

Truly love the stats site and can't wait to see what new features you've got up your sleeve.

Ditto for team totals across the top.

How bout having optional columns for the more stats oriented? I'd like to have a column with member's production as a percentage of the team (it's currently in pop-up per user).

[Spankin Partier]

Way to go Dyyryath! :cheers:

You're saved me tonnes of work! :p I was going to set up another stats's page for our team like I did our Seti, Folding, and Genome teams but I found yours and see no need for it any more! :)

BTW I do like Mad-ness's suggestion about clicking on the team names. This would provide more of a drill-down affect.

Once again, Thx! :D

[Dyyryath]

OK, the first round of suggestions have been implemented. I've made the following changes:

Added a 'Project Totals' row at the top and bottom of the 'All Teams' page
Added a 'Team Totals' row at the top and bottom of each team's 'User Stats' page
Modified the 'All Teams' page so that clicking on a team name now takes you directly to that team's 'User Stats' page.
Added a new section to the bottom of the 'Quick Page Jump' navigation which links 'related' pages when available. This is where you will find the link to a team's 'Detailed Stats Page' from that team's 'User Stats' page and vice versa.


I'm also looking into an option to allow users to select what data is being displayed as a column in the various tables (i.e. m0ti's request for percentage data in a column).

Anybody got anything else? I know there still has to be things that people aren't entirely happy with. ;)

[Scotttheking]

Originally posted by Dyyryath
Over the last couple of weeks, I've used my stats, statsman's stuff, and reader50's stuff over at Team MacNN extensively and I'm coming to the conclusion that the more 'features' you add, the less usable things become. Lots of features is certainly a *good* thing, but it can be easy to add things in a way that makes everything sort of 'blur together' to the point where you either (a) can't find what you're looking for, or (b) overlook something that you might have really liked.


Did you get that opinion regarding our stats?

[Dyyryath]

Not specifically, though sometimes I'm not entirely sure what I'm looking at or how to get to something in particular while I'm clicking around over there.

reader50's done such a fantastic job of offering every possible piece of information, that it can easily become overwhelming. When dealing with large amounts of information, different people tend to mentally organize it in different ways, which can make finding an organized method of displaying it that makes sense to everyone very difficult.

I've noticed the same thing with my own. It all seems simple and easy to navigate to me, but I've found things that others don't find so logical. That, in a nutshell, was my point with this thread. I'm trying to get people to tell me what I'm doing that doesn't make sense so I can correct it. ;)

[reader50]

I attempted to make the pages scaleable, under the user's control. They could choose the information level that they desired, and that their monitors allowed. What information kicks in at each level varies somewhat by the page type ... still, it is inevitable that some users will want a stat that appears only on the highest levels of most or all page types.

Like Dyyryath, I can find whatever I want on the pages right away. That is only to be expected, since I put all of it in the current locations. ;)

I considered letting the user have complete control of what columns appear .. a custom page level. It would not have been that hard to set up while designing the page structure, though it would be much harder now. The reason I didn't do that is because it would require considerable setup work on the part of the user.

Building a complex page and making it work consistently involves a fair amount of time. Using some kind of configure page would not be as bad, but would still require a time investment from the user to select which of 50+ data types to show, in what order. More time still if they have to choose which graphs. And what if they suddenly want a different column later? Send them back to the configure page?

The current setup seemed like a reasonable compromise for most people, and those who want more can still reach it. It's simple unless they want it to be complex. Most people most of the time just want stats, not assembly instructions. What it boiled down to was that full user control would actually make it more complex rather than less. At least, that is how it seemed when I thought it out.

Perhaps Dyy will come up with a different metaphor that will make everything simple. Without excluding the power users who want it all, and have the dual monitors + T1 line on which to get it.

[Welnic]

Your stats are so great that I am only posting here because you are begging.

When I make a custom graph of total production I would prefer if the bottom value was the lowest value being graphed instead of 0.

It would be nice to be able to make the custom graphs to compare teams.

I really like how pretty the graphs for daily and weekly production are, especially when you are comparing two people. But I actually think that the bar graph actually worked better, mainly because when there is a big spike you can't really see the values next to the spike. Also it was one of the few times that I have seen bar graphs used for something that they worked well for.

When I am looking at the all users page I do not see the percentage of the contribution like I do when I am on a user team page. The percentage sign is there but there is never a number.

Overall though, the only thing more amazing than how comprehensive it is is how fast it loads and how nice the navigation is.

[Dyyryath]

Ah, several good points in there, welnic. Thanks!

The custom graphs stuff needs an overhaul anyway. I'll be sure that I add an option to set the minimum value for the Y axis of the graph anywhere from 0 (where it is currently) up to the minimum value actually graphed. This way you can scale it as little or as much as you'd like.

Custom graphing for teams is in the works and it'll get rolled out at the same time as the above change (probably this week).

How about I make an extra option for the detailed stats pages (teams & users) that allows you to choose area, bar, or line graph formats for the daily & hourly production graphs? The same would be true for comparison graphs you get by clicking on usernames.

Hmmm...the percentages missing on the all user page...yeah, I see it now. I need to fix that. How about I make them percentages of the project total (since it's not a team page)?

Thanks again for the input, welnic. That's exactly the kind of stuff I'm after. :thumbs:

Anybody got anything else?

[m0ti]

How bout graphing best RMS too on the custom graphs?

[Dyyryath]

Originally posted by m0ti
How bout graphing best RMS too on the custom graphs?

I originally had graphing options for BestRMS, but I dropped them because I didn't think anyone would find them interesting. Heh...shows what I know, eh? :D

I've put the option back as in the 'Multi-User Custom Graphs' page (along with a bunch of other new stuff).

[m0ti]

THANK YOU!

Just realized that this could be a worthwhile graph for the team stats too (as in best RMS for a team vs. time).

Another request for the multi-user graph thing: could you have an option to display only active users instead of all of them? And perhaps an option for a user specified scale (for example, for best RMS I'd set the scale from 6 to 10 for the current protein. A single value of 99.999 causes all the interesting data to be lost due to scaling).

One last request (somewhat complicated):

anyway to do combined stat graphs?

Like say I'd want to look at best RMS (daily) vs. daily production or some other seemingly nonsensical thing (though these things can be used to identify interesting correlations, like how much will I have to fold on average to reach a certain RMS)? Yes, I realize that this would come out as either a 3-d or colored 2d graph.

Once again, thanks for the awesome work!

[Dyyryath]

It will be added to the team vs team graph (which is coming this week) as well. ;)

Let's see, I hadn't thought of the active users thing, I'll add that. That scaling issue is about to be resolved. Welnic had asked about something similar in his post so I'm already working on a new option to allow you to set minimum and maximums for the Y axis either aboslutely, or as a percentage of the actual minimum and maximum values.

The combo graphs I can do as well. I'll just have to come up with a simple interface for selecting options. I'll tinker with it next week once I get the other features launched.

Welnic, I think I've got all of your stuff covered, too. Everything should be live now except the team vs team custom graphing and the scaling on the graphs. Both of those will be working in the next couple of days.

For everyone who's offered an opinion so far, THANKS! :thumbs:

Feel free to continue. The more you come up with that you'd like to see (or see differently), the more I can accomodate. ;)

[Welnic]

Originally posted by Dyyryath
....

Welnic, I think I've got all of your stuff covered, too. Everything should be live now except the team vs team custom graphing and the scaling on the graphs. Both of those will be working in the next couple of days.

For everyone who's offered an opinion so far, THANKS! :thumbs:

Feel free to continue. The more you come up with that you'd like to see (or see differently), the more I can accomodate. ;)

Yeah, I've already noticed. Thanks in particular for the overall percentage. I have always kept track of that on Statsman stats and it is number that I try to keep inching upward. After seeing my percentage on your stats I realized that his don't include the Teamless Users in the total so my percentage is actually lower than I thought. But still inching upward.

[Dyyryath]

Alright, I've got some experimental scaling support built into the Multi-User Custom Graphing page. It's probably going to be more complex than most users need, so it's set to 'Auto' by default. For most people, this will be the best option.

However, for others (Welnic), it should allow some flexibility that they didn't have before. For example, Welnic asked for a way to make the Y axis start at the lowest value actually graphed instead of '0' when graphing his total production numbers.

To do this, you'd set the scaling type to 'Manual', and then set the 'Scaling Below Minimum Y Value' to 'None'.

The teams version of this graphing page is coming soon. It should be ready tomorrow or Thursday.

[Brian the Roman]

Just an idea... I've seen SETI issue some calculations/second info and started thinking. It might be nice to have a structures/second field available. Obviously this can apply to virtually any set of stats you display, but I'd be most interested in seing it for the entire project. This is already available on a client-b-client basis via dfGUI but we don't get any of the rollups even for a single user who has multiple machines.

Even without this tho, the stats are great.:notworthy

ms

[pointwood]

Complaint: Keeping up with all the extremely cool new stuff you add all the time is almost impossible :p :notworthy :thumbs:

When you click on a user and get the "User Info Box" (in ex. "Upcoming Conquests"), there is no "legend". Using this feature on the detailed team page gives you a legend.

Did I forget to say that that is a really cool feature? well, it is :thumbs:

A question: It's not a problem but just noticed that it's not possible to save the graph images you create by using the "save image" function in the browser. Why is that?

[gds]

Something I just thought about:

It would be nice for us, non-american, to have dates and times displayed in the local timezone rather than the server one.

It would make the conquest and threat forecast more meaningful.

[pointwood]

Dyyryath - I know of at least one person that would like to see color coding for the smaller crunchers too if possible?

:notworthy :notworthy :notworthy

Have a nice weekend :thumbs:

[Dyyryath]

Ah, a handful of new suggestions! I love new suggestions...so let's take these one at a time:

Brian the Roman: Calculations per second is no problem. I've just got to find a good place to put them. Do you have a preference on how they would be displayed?

Pointy: Well, that first complaint is easy enough to fix...I could make you a version without anything cool whatsoever. ;) :D

The missing legend was a bug. It's been fixed, thanks for the heads up! :thumbs:

The color coding for smaller crunchers is something I've considered in the past but it got lost in the shuffle as I worked on other things. I'll get back at this weekend.

I don't really want to color code every single user because then it just makes the stats a jumbled mess. What I'm thinking of is a switch to color code large producers or small producers. I'll have to experiment with it some, but I'm sure I can come up with something that will accomodate everyone.

gds: Local timezone support is a fantastic idea. I'll see that it gets added! :thumbs:

As long as we're one the subject of 'non-american' users, I've actually built the system with language support. If we have any non-english speaking guys around here that'd like to translate, I could send them a file with the approriate text. Once I've got 'message' files in multiple languages, I could easily turn that feature on...

[pointwood]

Thx Dyyryath.

You can send a language file to me and I'll to find some time to create a Danish version :)

joergen at ramskov.org

[MAD-ness]

As long as we're one the subject of 'non-american' users, I've actually built the system with language support. If we have any non-english speaking guys around here that'd like to translate, I could send them a file with the approriate text. Once I've got 'message' files in multiple languages, I could easily turn that feature on...

Wow.

I don't know how much they pay you at your real job (and I ain't asking) but if you do half the job you do here, it isn't enough. :)

You are redefining the word "thorough" here.

[Brian the Roman]

I'm not sure where they're best put. Right now we have daily, weekly and hourly columns for the enire project, each team and each individual user. Adding structs/sec for each of these would be nice but there isn't room on the screen. Someone suggested making selectable columns or you could simply make two views with a mechanism to switch between them.

ms

[m0ti]

How bout customizable color coding?

i.e. I decide what ranges correspond to which colours.

[Dyyryath]

OK, I think I've got the timezone support working. You can set it (and read about how it works) on this page (http://stats.zerothelement.com).

I'm think I'm probably going to put the structures/sec numbers in the popover boxes for the various values. You may also notice a change with the way the popovers work...I've added a 1.2 second delay to keep them from showing up unless you specifically hover over something, rather than just sliding the mouse across it.

The color coding thing I'm still looking into...I'll have more on that in the next day or two...

[Dyyryath]

OK, I've added a 'structures/second rate' for every value in the team, user, and production tables. It's right there with the capture data & production percentage values.

I've been giving some thought to the color coding stuff as well. m0ti's got a good suggestion with making it 'user adjustable'. However, I'm afraid that might defeat the purpose somewhat.

When I first started adding color coding to my charts, I was pretty much just making them for Team Primordial Soup, Ars Technica's Genome@Home team. I was a part of the team at the time and I was looking for a way to make people who were really doing well stand out, and to give others something to strive for.

I've seen lots of posts where somebody was happy that they had finally 'turned orange', or 'gone green'. I'm afraid if I make it so that each person can set different values for the color coding, it won't really matter anymore.

What do you guys think? Any suggestions?

[Paratima]

Originally posted by Dyyryath
I'm afraid if I make it so that each person can set different values for the color coding, it won't really matter anymore.
Exactly! I'd leave it. If it means whatever anyone wants it to mean, then it means nothing to anyone. :smoking:

[m0ti]

OK, I can live with that...

though it would be nice to perhaps have that in some optional hidden format (i.e. multi-user custom graphs). It's much more comfortable to use colours to view things than trying to identify exactly where a changeover takes place.

It's no biggie at all though.

Thanks for the awesome support Dyyryath! :jester:

[Dyyryath]

Hmmm...I'm not sure I understood that last part about the graphs...could you elaborate? There might be something there worth looking into.

[m0ti]

Originally posted by Dyyryath
Hmmm...I'm not sure I understood that last part about the graphs...could you elaborate? There might be something there worth looking into.

umm... who's that question to? :confused:

[tpdooley]

were you asking about a line during the protein changes - so we can easily see where the rates changed because of the protein, Moti? (or different colored background?)

[Darkness Productions]

Dyy - the same request I had above about sorting the teams should probably apply to the user stats graphing.... I can't c/p the URL for it, but you know what I mean.. I hope ;)

[Dyyryath]

Originally posted by m0ti
though it would be nice to perhaps have that in some optional hidden format (i.e. multi-user custom graphs). It's much more comfortable to use colours to view things than trying to identify exactly where a changeover takes place.

That question was for you, m0ti... I didn't quite understand what you meant by that part...

[m0ti]

Ahh.

Just the color-coding thing.

Actually, you know what? It really is no biggie at all, forget it!:rolleyes:

[1fast6]

great stats page... :cheers:

suggestion: freeze the position of the titles of the columns, so when you scroll down, the stats roll underneath them and the titles are always visible...

[Welnic]

The manual scaling works great as long as you don't have the scaling set so that the trace runs off the top or bottom of the graph. If you do that it doesn't stop at the border, it just runs through the legend outside the graph area.

It would be nice if when you had All Users up if you had the Move column as it applied to overall. Also when you looked at Upcoming Conquests with the team filter off if it showed you the position difference overall.

I think that there needs to be a better way to find your overall standing if you are not in the top 50. Three ways come to mind. When you use Quick User Search if there was a button that would take you to an overall page in addition to the current team page. A way to get from your Personal Stats Page to your overall page. Or if you were at the All Users page you could type in a structure number and go to an All User page with that number in the middle.

Being able to plot the best RMS on the custom graphs is pretty cool.

Overall: :notworthy

[Michelle]

Just want to say I'm enjoying the new stats format alot.

Thanks for all your hard work :thumbs:

[Welnic]

On the detailed team stats the Potential Threats only uses the weekly production setting. Changing to daily production has no affect.

I really like having the bar graphs available for production, thanks.

[Dyyryath]

Michelle: Thanks! I'm glad that it's proving to be useful to people. :)

Welnic: Thanks for the note about the broken 'Potential Threats' table. I've fixed it. :thumbs:

I've jotted down the rest of your list from the earlier post and I'm looking into it. I'm sure that I can accomodate each of those items. :cool:

[pointwood]

A request in another thread:
http://free-dc.org/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2563

:)

[Welnic]

In the potential threats for the teams when you are using the daily production the difference that the team is gaining by is divided by 7 like the weekly. For individuals and potential conquests there is not the same problem.

[Dyyryath]

LOL! I'm gonna have to list Welnic as an honorary developer on the project for all the debugging he's done. ;) :D

Thanks for the heads up, Welnic. :thumbs:

It should be fixed now. :cool:

[pointwood]

Dyyryath, if you are bored ;) I have a suggestion:

Statsman have some pretty nice team comparison stats right here: http://www.statsman.org/distfoldingstats/html/diff.html

It would be cool to have those, together with some cool graphs of course :)

I know you already have created the "Multi-Team Custom Graphing", but it would be nice to be able to just hit a link and get some standard ones :)

...

Yes, I'm picky :D

Did I forget to mention that your stats rocks? :rolleyes: Well, they do! :thumbs: :smoking:

[Dyyryath]

I should have some time this weekend to work on the stats. I just finished fixing the 'time to protein changeover' code on the Project Totals Page (http://stats.zerothelement.com/cgi-bin/distributed-folding/render-project-detailed.pl).

I'll get you some 'Top 10' tables and graphs over the next day or two...

[m0ti]

How bout adding tracking of best RMS for the entire project? Perhaps vs. production or something?

Interesting way to compare beta results to the regular algorithm's results.