200$ node can it be done ?

[PCZ]

rsbriggs asked the question

What is needed?

Linux network boot
1:PSU
2:CPU
3:MB Integrated video and lan
4:Memory

Windows
1 through 4 + HD

I don't think it can be done with new components

Thoughts ?

[magnav0x]

A $200 node could easily be built with the way prices are right now.

[Chinasaur]

$217 before shipping

http://www.ussa.com:80/ussaonline/product.asp?dept%5Fid=120&pf%5Fid=100%2D182%2D1000877

[IronBits]

That link sux0rs, fix it ;)

[Dyyryath]

I've been pondering this question some myself, lately. I've been thinking about building a small group of systems specifically for crunching. Once I've settled on a base spec, I'll post what I've come up with...

[Chinasaur]

works now

[rsbriggs]

http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=588557&Sku=MBM-PM10-C2400

Here's a cheapie link, too to MB / CPU combo. No ram, PS, HD...

[IronBits]

Motherboard
Asus A7N266-VM AA (AMD Assured Version) 266/200MHz FSB Motherboard Micro ATX
Socket A AMD Duron, Athlon, and Athlon XP up to 2600+
Chipset: NVIDIA nFORCE 220D (IGP-64 and MCP-D)
FSB:266/200 MHz
2 DIMM sockets support max. 1GB unbuffered PC2100/1600 non-ECC RAM
Slots:3x PCI 1xAGP PRO 4x
Onboard LAN:10/100 Mbps
Integrated AC97and Dolby Digital 5.1 (AC-3) Encoder Audio
Integrated Nvidia Nforce GeFORCE2 Video.
2 onboard USB ports
Item: N82E16813131445 Model# A7S333 PA
Price: $62.99

RAM DDR
KINGSTON KVR333X64C25/256 256MB 32x64 PC2700 DDR RAM (better than 2100 2400)
6 Layers High Quality Board; CL 2.5; 184-Pin Unbuffered. Requires DDR supported Motherboard - Lifetime Warranty through Manufacturer -OEM (limit 5 per customer)
Item: N82E16820141302 Model# KVR333X64C25/256
Price: $46.00

Power Supply
Antec Original 300W ATX12V Power Supply - Retail Model # SL300 6-output. For Pentium 4. Antec Original Warranty. More...
Item: N82E16817103917 Model# SL300
Price: $39.99

Processor
AMD ATHLON XP 2400 /266 FSB PROCESSOR CPU- OEM
Specifications:
CPU: 2.0 GHz
Type: XP 2400 Thoroughbred 2 GHz
Cache: 256K
BUS: 266MHz
Socket A
-OEM (limit 5 per customer)
Item: N82E16819103335 Model# AXDA2400DKV3C
Price: $79.00

Total $228.97 Plus shipping
Pretty close - I have not tried this combination. Good brand name stuff
www.newegg.com is your friend ;)

[Chinasaur]

my link still has all ya'll beat and it includes case. May not be top of the line, but it's complete.

[rsbriggs]

And here is a link to a USB based 10/100 PXE boot device. Or could go the boot PXE floppy route (see bottom of same page).

http://www.bootroms.com/catalog/product_info.php/products_id/162

Trouble is, I don't have a clue how to get the M$ RIS environment set up to send boot images to diskless workstations. I tried wading through M$ documentation, but most of it makes man pages look like preschool reading material by comparison....

[Darkness Productions]

Over at Ars, they found quite a few interesting things about a mobo with integrated video. It crunches slower (as expected), since it uses system memory instead of it's own memory. heretic also found out that with most linux distro's, you should be able to boot up without having a video installed at all.


Just food for thought.


Originally posted by PCZ

3:MB Integrated video and lan

[rsbriggs]

Chinasaur,

The system you mentioned looks tempting. I'm just not certain where it falls in terms of price/performance ratio. I want to solve the problems once for a specific set of hardware (the problems being things like: booting it off the network, running it headless, etc.) Once I have settled on a set of hardware, I want to duplicate it several times. The only reason I belive that the system you mentioned isn't the best possible price / performance solution is because it IS complete.

The systems I build won't have a keyboard, mouse, or speakers. They won't need 6 channel sound, or 128 bit AGP graphics cards.... And, I'd prefer for heat and power consumption, that they didn't even need a hard drive. (Now if I could just get that system without those extras, at a reduced price, I'd probably be ordering 4 of them right now. )

Just have to solve the price / performance thing - would two AMD 1700+ systems at $80 each for MOBO/CPU be better than a single AMD 2400+ system for $200? Where does something like a $90 Intel 2.4 Ghz Celeron fit into the mix?

I wish we could get some folding benchmarks that included the make of the motherboard, processor type, ram speed, operating system, FSB speed, and the like. A big collection of benchmarks like that would certainly make it easier to figure this all out......

[PCZ]

On most integrated boards, on board video does slow things down
Motherboards with VIA chipsets are the worst in this respect.

With Nforce MB's on board video doesn't impact performance at all.
This is because they have more memory bandwidth than the CPU can use on its own so sharing with the video is ok.

You can disable the video after installing the OS if you are going to run headless.
However some motherboards will refuse to post without a video card installed.

I only use Nforce 2 Chipsets with Athlons because they perform the best.

[dragongoddess]

The hardest thing you will face is the motherboard issue. Do you settle for a mobo with limited upgrade potential or do you go with one that will allow you to upgrade. As I see it now we are at a point in both Intel and AMD roadmaps where many new changes will be introduced in the next few months. DO you go with todays motherboards or do you wait for the new generation boards to finally show up? And to make matters worse the price of memory is going up.
Then of course there is the issue of going with dual mobos.

[rsbriggs]

Yes DragonGoddess, you are correct. It is likely that over the next couple of months both AMD and Intel will be mucking about with changes designed to make previous versions of everything obsolete. And then there are other little things on the horizon like the Opteron, PCI-X, and so forth.

I'm not certain that anything you buy in the next couple of months will be compatible with changes due by the end of the year. (And I'm certain that they do this on purpose, just to "stimulate the economy".) On the other hand, that means that the current top-of-the-line systems will be cheaper.

I still have an 800 Mhz AMD system crunching along just fine (even though it singlehandedly raises the temperature in my computer room about 5 degress C). I guess that says to me that current systems would still be fine for DC work several years down the road, even if they can't be upgraded with the latest/greatest processors or add-ons. That would make my answer to the "upgradable" system requirement a "NO" - that isn't a requirement.

Seems like the trick is going to be to get the best performance you can, today, at a reasonable price. That's why the 2.4 Ghz celeron MB and CPU for $80 is so tempting. Might not be the highest performer on the market, but it's cheap, and should be able to crunch for years.... (And I'm guessing that I could run two of them off of a single power supply.)

That system that Chinasaur pointed out is becoming more and more reasonable looking... (I just want $200 or under, shipping included, period.)

[dragongoddess]

I really don't believe you are getting the best bang for the buck if you go with the celeron. You are better off with a Biostar M7VIT Pro. The only AMD proc it won't support at this time is the XP3200+ since it has a 400FSB otherwise it rocks for around $63.00 and free second day air. Couple that with a XP2400+ plus memory and you should come in under $200.00. And if I remember correctly the Biostar board has several options for booting such as booting from a CD rom or over a LAN.

[GHOST]

rs briggs said:

"Seems like the trick is going to be to get the best performance you can, today, at a reasonable price. That's why the 2.4 Ghz celeron MB and CPU for $80 is so tempting. Might not be the highest performer on the market, but it's cheap, and should be able to crunch for years.... (And I'm guessing that I could run two of them off of a single power supply.) "

I saw the 2.4 celeron for sale cheap so I was going to get one to replace my p4 1.6. A little research and I learned I have a 1.6 willamette. 256 l2 cache i believe. Much slower than the newer 1.6. At some forums i read the celeron 2.4 has this smaller cache and is a waste of time. My barton 2500 has l2 512 cache and I think it smokes.

I learned my lesson buying the very lastest. I bought the 2500 in feb. for $180 and now they are $90.

I like this thread because these are all questions I have been thinking of lately.
i.e. onboard video and speed/ do i need video to boot/run

Regarding running two mobos off one power supply- the link Ironbits provided recently where the guy built a stack off six Shuttle mobos-he runs two off one psu.

[Welnic]

I think that trying to keep the price under a specific number is not quite the way to go. I think it is better to look at the current prices and get what currently has the best price performance ratio. When I first started my net booting setup I ended up with 2100XPs, the last three that I got were two 2500 Bartons and a 2400XP, as I could only get two Bartons per order. If there is some kind of issue like 3 1600s versus 2 2400s I would always go for 2 machines. The heat and space issues are also important, not just the initial cost.

I have a couple of dual linux boxen and while they are fun machines they cost more than singles. The MBs are more, the processors are more if you don't won't to hack on your hardware, and they usually take slightly more expensive RAM.

I don't worry about upgrading at all. Once it's built and running let it run, if a faster processor comes out then buy it its own motherboard. I prefer to use motherboards without onboard video, and just use a video card for the initial setup.

I have made a couple of power splitter cables, it is a pain in the ass to do but not only does it save the price of a power supply but you have less clutter and heat in your rig.

http://rasy.com/home/clint/farmpics/CubeFarm.html

[dragongoddess]

For the integrated video question. Yes it will slow you down. Best thing is to pick up a dirt cheap video card. After all you won't be using it for any games or video.

[rsbriggs]

Well, OK. Broke down and placed an order for an nForce2 board / FSB 400. Now hows about our AMD guru (I won't reveal that it's you, IronBits) coming forward with a good price/performance analysis of chips to put in it, and places to obtain said chips?

Chips? Oh, and beer. Open the virtual fridge - another Intel guy takes a step off towards the dark side..... Maybe I should surf over to XoXide (http://www.xoxide.com/allcases.html) and pick up one of their pretty little cases for it. Reactive greeen looks interesting. Although, from past experience, perhaps the Hurricane (http://www.xoxide.com/xoxw.html) case might be more appropriate.. :D

How's this look for a processor ?

Computer Hardware > Processors > AMD > N82E16819103379
►On Sale!
AMD ATHLON XP 2500+ "Barton" 333 FSB PROCESSOR CPU- RETAIL
Specifications:
CPU: 1.83 GHz
Type: XP 2500 Barton Core
Cache: 512K L2, 128K L1, Total 640KB
BUS: 333MHz
Socket A
Retail Box (Heatsink and Fan included)
(limit 2 per customer)
Item: N82E16819103379 Model# AXDA2500BOX
Price: $90.00 Shipping: Special Free FedEx Saver Shipping

Now what the heck is the difference between Thoroughbred, Barton, XP, Athalon XP, and so forth? This chip seems to have the biggest cache, and uses the 333 FSB. Hope it's compatible with the MOBO I just bought. Could it possibly not be ?

[IronBits]

You didn't say which mobo, but you mentioned 400fsb, that tells me you are open for a 333fsb processor :)
For $99, you can get an XP2600/333 for 2.13 GHz of clean fun ;)

You don't need a Barton = 512mb L2 cache - no client I know of takes advantage of the larger L2 cache.
My xp2600s run faster than Barton XP2800s and were a lot cheaper.
You are paying more for the larger L2 cache than processor speed.

This assumes you are not into overclocking, so we won't go down the XP1800 pushed to 2.2 GHz type stuff. ;)

[rsbriggs]

Was editing post while you were answering.... How would you rate the two chips, in terms of performance and OC ability (do you OC yours at all?) Is the 2600 versus the 2500 Barton worth it? The $9.00 difference between them isn't much of an issue... :hifi:

These guys vote for the Barton, but I'm not certain how much credibility the posters there have: Hardware Forum (http://www.hardwareanalysis.com/content/topic/9784/)

[Thor]

Just as an idea: The ASRock K7S8X looks promising ,too. Take a look here (http://www.asrock.com.tw/product/amd/index.htm) in Germany it is available for around 52$ and it should support the newest Barton cpus.
Maybe the board is worth a try

Greets Thor

[dragongoddess]

The XP2400+ is the sweet spot at this point. It runs around $83.50 for the retail package at googlegear with free second day air included. The OEM price is $80.00. The speed of the cpu is 2ghz.
As far as the BArton goes the extra L2 cache doesn't seem to have any impact on present DC projects.

[IronBits]

Originally posted by rsbriggs
How would you rate the two chips, in terms of performance and OC ability (do you OC yours at all?) Is the 2600 versus the 2500 Barton worth it? The $9.00 difference between them isn't much of an issue... :hifi:
XP2400 = 2 GHz
XP2500 = 1.83 GHz (Barton)
XP2600 = 2.13 GHz
Both the 2400 and 2600 are faster than the xp2500 Barton
XP2400 is the best price/performance for 266MHz FSB processor
XP2600 is the best price/performance for 333MHz FSB processor
forget over clocking for now ;)

[Darkness Productions]

By the way ;)

It only has 512KB of L2 cache.... not MB :Pokes:

Also, the seti client still uses larger cache, and the 512 *does* make a difference if you're running that project. There are a couple of others that can use it as well, but nothing that we've focused on heavily at this point...

Just thought I'd fill you in.



Originally posted by IronBits
You don't need a Barton = 512mb L2 cache - no client I know of takes advantage of the larger L2 cache.

[IronBits]

512KB L2 cache in the proc doesn't get you much, if anything...
I ran SETI with
XP2800 Bartons 2.08GHz,
XP2600/333 2.08GHz,
XP2600/266 2.13GHz and
XP2600/360 2.25GHz (266x16 changed to 180x12.5).
The XP2600/266/360 won. ;)

[CodeMonkey]

Well, decided to go with the Barton - retail with fan $90, rather than the 2600+ $103 retail with fan. (I'm assuming that this motherboard allows free setting of the multiplier) I've heard that most Bartons are very easy to crank up a little and are very stable running at 400 FSB, which puts them somwhere between 2900+ to 3000+, performance wise.

Not that I really want to get into the OC business, much.

That puts me at the $150 mark, leaving $50 for RAM and so forth.

Chinasaurs find of AMD XP 2400/128MB DDR/20GB/90DAYS/NO OS at $217 + $15 flat rate shipping for UPS ground == $232 still doesn't sound like a bad deal....

[Thor]

I looked at some hardware today and somehow the prices in the US seem quite a bit lower than in Germany!
That sucks big time
:mad: :bonk:

Greets Thor

[CodeMonkey]

Grrrr. One day after buying a motherboard from Googlegear and a CPU from NewEgg, the motherboard shows up at NewEgg for $4 less....

newEgg (http://www.newegg.com/app/viewproduct.asp?description=13-138-227&DEPA=1)
GoogleGear (http://www.googlegear.com/jsp/ProductDetail.jsp?ProductCode=246406)

[dragongoddess]

Yea but you got 2nd day air for no charge at googlegear whereas at new egg you either pay a small charge or you get free ground. The better deal is googlegear even with a $4 difference.

[Chinasaur]

CodeMonkey,

Just got notification the puter went out FedEx ground today..no arrival date yet.

When I get it running I'll let you know how it performs. Dog or Good Bargain :)

[rsbriggs]

It's certainly got to be a better bargain than the 10 I bought off eBay for about $180 each.....

Guess we get to find out if the 200 FSB is a typo, and they meant 266, or what....

[GHOST]

for someone using an a7n8x this looks like good reading.

http://www.hardforums.com/showthread.php?threadid=568597

http://www.amdforums.com/forumdisplay.php?forumid=8

my brother just built one and had a problem setting up a sata hd. seems
you have to download the driver from asus site. not nice if you want to
start with sata.

reading these also made me try upping my fsb. had to lower the multiplier of course but i ran all day at 195 fsb. i have a cpu temp of 52 C. using volcano 11. don't know if it folds faster with new setting

[IronBits]

Yes, the newer rev motherboards on an A7N8X (Deluxe) handles 400fsb.
I use an XP2600/266 x16 and change it in the BIOS to 12.5x and shove the fsb to 180. = 2.25 GHz.
Default for XP2600/333 is x12.5.
I use Aggresive timings, so the ram and cpu are running at 360 fsb without a voltage bump, and it's rock solid.
The Deluxe version has onboard SATA with the latest chipset.
When loading w2k/XP, I took the drivers from CD and copied them to a floppy.
At the press F6 to load drivers - I pressed F6, it looked to the floppy and it picked the SATA driver right up. :)
I have 7 Asus A7N8X boards, 3 are Deluxe models, every one of them ran right out of the box, and are excellent performers. :thumbs:
I also use Volcano 9 HSF ;)
I have also put 1 drive in IDE0 and one on 2nd SATA port, got w2k/XP to load the SATA drivers, rebooted and let it come all the way back up and verified the SATA disk is recognized.
Shut down the box, moved the drive off IDE0 and put it on 1st SATA port.
Turned it on, the SATA controller comes up, I created a MIRROR, duplicated (20 minutes on a 36GB Raptor Drive), saved config, rebooted, came up no problems.

[Chinasaur]

Ok..the cheap beastie us up and running...here's the hot skinny..

1. Nice case..not ONE FAN in it :( - Added one 80mm exhaust
2. Teeny, tiny red chinese MOBO - 2 PCI, 1AMR, 1AGP, 2DDR RAM
3. Computer came in box (within a larger box that held peripherals) with - an RMA sticker from TigerDirect!!!! :scared: (At this point I start praying to the Holy Llamas)
4. Keyboard has RMA sticker on it from some nameless company ("Oh Holy Llamas..hear my plea!!") - Keyboard appears new tho. Didn't use it or check it.
5. Cheapo mouse and speakers brand new

I put in a vid card and a NIC I had laying around as well as removed the 128 and replaced with 512 RAM.

Held fingers and pressed on. No boot. Aieeeee. Deep breathe. Realized On/Off switch on back of PS is off.."Switch On Smedley!!". Power switch now turns on computer!!! :)

Disabled everything in BIOS. Vid works, RAM detected. Boot into Mandrake 8.1 (my silver bullet) and install 8.1.

Re-start and it's working nice and fast now.

So I guess I cheated a bit by using an extra card and nic...

Total extras - (1) video card, (1) 512MB RAM, (1) 80mm fan