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  1. #1
    Administrator Dyyryath's Avatar
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    An Opinion on the State of Free-DC

    I've been in the forums a bit the last few days and something kind of sad has occured to me. It just doesn't seem quite the same as it did in the beginning.

    Now, keep in mind that everything I'm about to say is just my opinion and doesn't mean squat around here. It's says Administrator under my name and some of you might know that I was one of the founders, but Free-DC was meant to belong to the community from the very beginning so whatever I might think about 'the state' of Free-DC carries exactly as much weight as what any other single member thinks. I'm just going to put a few thoughts out there to see if anyone else feels the same way.

    When we founded it, Free-DC was a group of guys who (more or less) were all interested in the same couple of projects. One of our goals, however, was to make Free-DC a place where anyone could work on whatever they wanted to without any stipulations by the rest of the team about what project was 'most' important, or who was being useful to the team or not. I'd say we've succeeded admirably in that respect. I doubt any other team has more projects available for it's members to participate in under their flag.

    Unfortunately, I think we've paid a price for that freedom, or rather, our implementation of it. I've been out of touch for awhile, so coming back into the forums gives me kind of a newbie, outside perspective that I didn't have before and you know what? I think we've lost our way a bit. As an outsider coming in, these forums are bewildering and seem painfully stagnant. Allow me to explain...

    I pop in one afternoon after deciding that I want to get some machines running DC again. For me, being part of a team and enjoying the company and competition with my fellow members was always the most important part of the equation. The goal of the project I was crunching on was important, but secondary to my desire to have fun with my teammates.

    With that in mind, I started looking through the forums to try to find something to crunch. Unfortunately, we now have a bewildering array of forums and subforums. Some have a post or two, some have more, but it's very difficult to get an 'overall sense' of what Free-DC members are doing just by coming to the forums. The projects are so segmented away from each other, that even if I did choose one to jump in, I'd probably never get the time to go through each of the other forums every day to see if I was missing something good brewing elsewhere on the site.

    This place has begun to feel like a village without a center for people to congregate in. Everyone has split into little groups and gone off to meet in a different house to do their own thing leaving new arrivals to stand in an empty village and wonder where everyone is. I think we've lost something that was important to our community.

    Now, to people who spend a lot of time here, things may not look like this at all. Still, keep in mind that one of the great things about DC is getting new people involved. That makes the 'newbie perspective' somewhat important.

    I would never suggest that we limit the number of projects that we compete in, nor would I suggest that Free-DC have an 'official' project. I would, however, suggest that we make some structural changes to our fourms. I think we've got way too many.

    Back when I was at Ars Technica with the other Free-DC founders, we started using a technique to allow multiple projects to exist in a single forum (which was all Ars Technica had alloted for Distributed Computing): posts that were specific to a project were given a prefix. For example, 'Team Egg Roll' was the name of Ars Technica's Folding@Home team, so any post specific to Folding@Home had [TER] in front of the title. This made it easy to find posts about the project you were interested in, but still allowed you to see what else was going on without having to dig through lots of other forums and subforums. It also let people see at glance which projects were the most popular for those who were just looking for a project with lots of participation to get engaged in.

    I think we have too many projects to just have one big forum with prefixes for each one. Instead, maybe we could combine the existing layers of subforums into just a couple of forums based on the 'type' of project (i.e. biology, math, other) with a sticky post at the top explaining a little about each project, it's prefix and how the prefixes work. I think we should also whittle down the non-project forums into just the Lounge forum. I think a couple of forums with lots of activity are far better than a bunch with just the occasional post.

    It sure would be nice to just hop in, glance through one or two project forums and then go hang out in the Lounge for a bit. But then, like everything else in this post, that's just my opinion.
    "So utterly at variance is destiny with all the little plans of men." - H.G. Wells

  2. #2
    Christmas Lighterer!
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    Very good post. One thing in specific I'll agree with is the forums are too spread out. Having sub-forums that haven't had a post in the past year or two is a sign that things should be consolidated a bit. (imho at least)
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  3. #3
    Administrator Bok's Avatar
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    I would tend to agree. It's difficult to see this when you are going through it in real time (over the past 3 years) but yes, taking a step back I would agree, it's time for a freshener.

    One thing to mention which you may not know though, personally I rarely enter any forum, I just use the 'quick links' dropdown for todays posts.

    Bok

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Bok
    One thing to mention which you may not know though, personally I rarely enter any forum, I just use the 'quick links' dropdown for todays posts.
    Same here. I don't visit any "forums" per say, just use the "New Posts" link to show me what has been posted since the last time I was here and read the ones I am interested in.

  5. #5
    almost retired the-mk's Avatar
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    I'm also using the new posts link when I revisit this forum after a time. I often look at distributed.net-posts, then at OS or network discussion, then at lobby or lounge... so I'm picking out the things that interest me...

    Nice to see you back Dyy!
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  6. #6
    Free-DC Semi-retire gopher_yarrowzoo's Avatar
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    Yeah after DF I did kinda notice a slight drift, so yeah Dyyryth your right.
    I don't know if this is possible with the forum layout but maybe a "selectablity" with 2 layouts, 1 where it's forum etc. and all the maths type projects are under it and so forth, the admin forums set up to stay as is, a tweak on some of the other forums to shrink list a little and obviously hosted to stay where they are. The other layout is as it stands just now with a few tweaks to some forums (them being moved to sub-forums or merged).
    Default for the new guys / guests being the new layout, those who've been here long enough just see the tweaks but all the forums still link in to the same place just get there a different way. We need another "DF" and fozzie to do the weekly take on it, the battles, the road kills and of course the "and you thought you had me, eat my dust......" sneaker net dumpers ...
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  7. #7
    Dungeon Master alpha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dyyryath
    Unfortunately, I think we've paid a price for that freedom, or rather, our implementation of it. I've been out of touch for awhile, so coming back into the forums gives me kind of a newbie, outside perspective that I didn't have before and you know what? I think we've lost our way a bit. As an outsider coming in, these forums are bewildering and seem painfully stagnant. Allow me to explain...
    I think this is to be expected somewhat. There are so many DC projects that there are bound to be some which aren't very popular or aren't getting much attention. This is to do with forum layout though, as you've discussed.

    For me, being part of a team and enjoying the company and competition with my fellow members was always the most important part of the equation.
    This is still going strong, you just have to be looking in the right place. As you know, people jump about around projects virtually on a daily basis so it can be difficult to follow popularity. However, I usually find that by reading new posts here each day you can see what is hot. Conversely, some popular projects don't get that much discussion.

    The projects are so segmented away from each other, that even if I did choose one to jump in, I'd probably never get the time to go through each of the other forums every day to see if I was missing something good brewing elsewhere on the site.
    This is why I read *all* new posts. You can see where all the discussion is taking place, plus you see discussion involving taunts and gauntlet proposals.

    This place has begun to feel like a village without a center for people to congregate in. Everyone has split into little groups and gone off to meet in a different house to do their own thing leaving new arrivals to stand in an empty village and wonder where everyone is.
    I think this is almost by-design, isn't it? People are supposed to feel free to go off to whatever project they want, though I don't want new users to feel alienated. I like the idea of a central discussion area, but how can you have such a thing unless it involves discussion of any/all projects? I'm not sure that it would work unless the forum layout is redesigned.

    Now, to people who spend a lot of time here, things may not look like this at all. Still, keep in mind that one of the great things about DC is getting new people involved.
    I've been here a fair few years now and I must admit that I hadn't noticed a particular great change. However, thinking back a little bit I can reminisce about times past when Distributed Folding was massive and this place was certainly a little different back then.

    I would, however, suggest that we make some structural changes to our fourms. I think we've got way too many.
    As I said before, I like the idea of some kind of central discussion area, and I'm all for change if it works. I'm not sure that there really is a solution to this problem that everyone will like, though.

    Back when I was at Ars Technica with the other Free-DC founders, we started using a technique to allow multiple projects to exist in a single forum (which was all Ars Technica had alloted for Distributed Computing): posts that were specific to a project were given a prefix. For example, 'Team Egg Roll' was the name of Ars Technica's Folding@Home team, so any post specific to Folding@Home had [TER] in front of the title.
    No offense, but I read over at Ars on a daily basis and I hate the way their DC sub-forum is set out. I don't think it works very well and in some cases you have to know which project is which team acronym, so it can be confusing.

    I think we have too many projects to just have one big forum with prefixes for each one.
    I completely agree.

    Instead, maybe we could combine the existing layers of subforums into just a couple of forums based on the 'type' of project (i.e. biology, math, other) with a sticky post at the top explaining a little about each project, it's prefix and how the prefixes work. I think we should also whittle down the non-project forums into just the Lounge forum. I think a couple of forums with lots of activity are far better than a bunch with just the occasional post.
    Seems like a pretty good idea. However, for example, there are lots of math projects and if quite a few of them become popular at once, it may get confusing. A lot of them involve prime numbers and so an unspecific thread title could lead to someone replying in relation to the wrong project. Conversely, it would be good for math-nuts to peruse an entire math sub-forum instead of one for each of the (countless) math projects.

    I like your ideas Dyyryath and it is nice to get a fresh opinion on things. Most new users would probably just not visit again if they didn't like the way it worked here, so it is definitely advantageous that you took some time out and returned later with a fresh view of things.

  8. #8
    Downsized Chinasaur's Avatar
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    Dyy,

    I've also seen this happening and felt the same way... But there's nothing for it. When you, JT, Colin, IB and Marc started FDC, your goal was to create a "home" for those of us who didn't like/fit in at the AT fora. You succeeded.

    However, on that day, you threw open the barn door. The "horse" began to move toward the door, it's just taken years for the "horse" to actually wander out. This process has been slow, but detectable.

    I've also seen the sub-forum creation, and the sub-teams, and the internal splintering of FDC, but this was the inevitable outcome of the decisions that were made when FDC was founded. I believed they were right then..and I believe they are still correct now.

    Back in 2001, when most of us participated on the same projects (and weren't there a lot fewer?), it was easy to keep focus and enjoy the communal sense. Now, with a myriad of projects AND more people, that's not so easy. But, like any human gathering, it got more complex over time and grew. We're simply a mirror of human nature and history.

    I miss as do you, that "small town" feeling we had at the start. But that's gone, never to return. And you couldn't start another forum (not that you would) to try to recreate it...Thomas Wolfe was right...

    FDC is like a child who has grown up. I would tell you, as would any parent, to not grieve or regret that your child isn't the same cute toddler you remember. I would tell you to look with pride on what your "child" has become and let it go to achieve it's own future.


    Agent Smith was right!: "I hate this place. This zoo. This prison. This reality, whatever you want to call it, I can't stand it any longer. It's the smell! If there is such a thing. I feel saturated by it. I can taste your stink and every time I do, I fear that I've somehow been infected by it."

  9. #9
    Ancient Programmer Paratima's Avatar
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    Hiya, Dyy! Good to see you back from wherever you've been. I saw your post over in STATS, but I figured I'd wait to say hi till you jumped back in. Like alpha, I read most new posts and that's how I keep up.

    I agree with Dyy's observations, although he's not exactly a "newbie", nor, I would point out, did he come in like one. We probably need to do somewhat more to welcome newcomers and make them feel at home. Several times lately, I've read a post and said, "Who was that?", to find it was someone who had been quietly crunching for a long while.

    I also think that a lot of the "community feel" drifted away with the demise of Distributed Folding. It was as close as Free-DC ever came to an "owned" project. I note that even then, LOTS of us were still pounding away on different projects, but it seems that DF gave us focus. I can't speak for the ones who didn't run DF. For them, it may have looked different.

    I don't think we'll see another project that will bind us the way DF did, but then, you really can't predict that sort of thing. I believe that for the "community feel" we probably need to put more emphasis on meeting in the Lounge, but without making it burdensome. Most of the topics there don't really interest me, so I just read and move on. Certainly, we could "point" newbies to the Lounge and invite them in to make introductions. This already happens to some extent, but it could be better.

    IMHO, Free-DC is doing pretty much what the founders intended, providing a meeting place, people to chat with, and information about a plethora of projects to choose from without pressure.

    The forum could likely do with a bit of streamlining, but I don't see too much being broke. I was here, back then, and I remember. Join date: 12-28-2001 - Same day as Pointwood and just 3 days after ColinT, Dyyryath, Marc-1, JTrinkle and IronBits. Refugees from ARS. Wow! That's no time at all. Why does it seem like so long ago?!
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  10. #10
    Ancient Programmer Paratima's Avatar
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    OOPS! And Chinasaur. How could I forget Chinasaur? Well, I've certainly tried.
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  11. #11
    Free-DC Overclockaholic n7vxj's Avatar
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    I Object!!

    Bok, I have to speak my peace here!! There have been many forums that I have been a part of.But, out of all of those, I can't think of any that have had anyone as dedicated as you are, to making these Forums the best that they can possibly be!! That includes forums, stats, etc..... you all know what I'm referring to!! Phil. IMHO, you make Free-DC, the Main reason I come back here day after day,and keep crunchin with the best bunch of Guys, and Gals around!!!Every since I have been around here,we have kicked some serious DC butt, and that makes me proud to be a small part of such an awesome Team!!Phil, THANK-YOU for all the energy , and time, that you put into making Free-Dc the best Forum around!!As far as the rest,you Guys,have made this an awesomw Forum that i look forward to coming to each day,so do what you feel needs to be done, to keep it the best around!

    Lauren, I remember all to well, when Things got really nasty on that other board!! I'm glad I found you, and You invited me to check out Free-DC.Alright,I admit I can never match you fire power crunchin,but it feels awesome to be a part of a such a great Team!!I'm glad I ended out up here, with the Best DC Crew around!!
    Last edited by n7vxj; 02-19-2007 at 01:29 AM.
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