Seti, Cheating and the press

**fRaGgLe** · 10-28-2002, 08:31 PM

I was just interviewed by ZDNet, they are writing an article on seti statistic cheats, and the implications for the project, the winners and losers in the stats race, and the overstatement of the rescources that Berkeley are claiming to have - hence the attractiveness to potential sponsors.....

I almost dread to think what may be written....

**PY 222** · 10-28-2002, 08:44 PM

Well, here is hoping that once the article is published, Berkeley will get off their ass and start doing something about it.

I know that cheats are getting out of hand from the DCA over at Ars. This have better stop before it ruins the reputation of DC in general.

Its a good thing that you are doing something about it

Keep on Crunching.

**FoBoT** · 10-28-2002, 08:50 PM

you did right trying to get the word out
be sure to give us a link when it gets published, i have some forums i want to link it on

**Jammy** · 10-29-2002, 12:59 AM

That was the right thing to do frag! Ya know this whole thing has made me very complacent over the whole Seti thing . . .I am slowly taking my now four boxes off of Seti until this whole thing either blows over or is brought out into the daylight for all to see!

I am surprised that so many have tried to justify all that has transpired the last two years or so, even those at other well-known forums.

And even others still look the other way and talk so optimistic about the project . . .still.

I am just bummed out over the whole issue and have decidced to slow down production just because . . .

jammy

Originally posted by fRaGgLe
I was just interviewed by ZDNet, they are writing an article on seti statistic cheats, and the implications for the project, the winners and losers in the stats race, and the overstatement of the rescources that Berkeley are claiming to have - hence the attractiveness to potential sponsors.....

I almost dread to think what may be written....

**MAD-ness** · 10-29-2002, 02:31 AM

Fraggle: you know that I support you on this.

I am curious though, how did they know to contact you? Or did you contact them?

Not that they don't deserve it either way, but I was just curious.

Like Aegion said when linking this thread"

"this could get ugly."

Oh well, sticking one's head in the sand doesn't get any problems fixed and pointing out problems does not create them.

**Lagardo** · 10-29-2002, 01:25 PM

FWIW: this is the right thing to do IMNSHO.

When the crapper is stopped up, you have to roll up your sleeve and reach in and remove whatever is sitting there. I've been getting rather annoyed with the squeamishness of the general DC community. "Maybe it'll go away if we look away long enough". Sometimes you have to get your hands dirty to get something working again.

Ars has been examplary in its willingness at least to TALK about the subject in frank terms (contrary to most DC forums I've poked around in). But that doesn't help if everybody thinks they're somehow "above" plumbing.

**Jammy** · 10-29-2002, 01:45 PM

Hey . . .I am with Ars on this issue and frag!

This is what the founder of Team Endeavor IM'd me last nigjht:

12h10m : 2002-10-28 22:25:26 :
Nah, you be listening to them ARS folks too much. We here to have fun! SETI is fun! ;-)

and:

We have a couple of people working in the background watching our team for cheats, and even testing to know what to look for when they hear of cheats. the team doesn't really like the discussion of them at the team level, so we basically don't.

and in regards to the letter writing and frag's interview:

crap. they are great at messing things up

So now I just keep my mouth shut at BBR but I read all that I can on this issue at Ars. I do not have a way with words and those at Team Endeavor seem to want to bypass the whole thing and cannot rightfully justify their actions. So I am just left crunching and waiting. At least I am staying informed!

Jammy

Originally posted by Lagardo
FWIW: this is the right thing to do IMNSHO.

When the crapper is stopped up, you have to roll up your sleeve and reach in and remove whatever is sitting there. I've been getting rather annoyed with the squeamishness of the general DC community. "Maybe it'll go away if we look away long enough". Sometimes you have to get your hands dirty to get something working again.

Ars has been examplary in its willingness at least to TALK about the subject in frank terms (contrary to most DC forums I've poked around in). But that doesn't help if everybody thinks they're somehow "above" plumbing.

**fRaGgLe** · 10-29-2002, 05:29 PM

Well, well, well.

I have taken a lot of heat for this, and will probably take a lot more in the future.

My stance is clear, and solid.

I loathe cheaters

The whole stats thing is crazy, you process work because you want to, the corporation or universities see the stats as secondary, but hey, it shows a level of effort that you have put into the task, and you should be proud.

However, the stats become perverted (not that type of perverted, put the whip down), when you have people cheating, this diminishing the effort that is put in by any legitimate user.

It is fairly obvious that there is widespread cheating going on at seti@home, and that the stats are hard to beleive anymore. I currently occupy a spot in the top 1000 overall - without the cheats, I wonder where I would be - top 500, top 400, top 700 ?

Part of this problem is that its so dammed hard to catch a clever cheat. There are patterns to types of cheats, and there are suspicios numbers that are posted, but who is to say that womeone has not got 15,000 pc's available to them ? It has happened, but its unlikely.

I am on a mission to show these cheats up for the scum that they actually are. I hope that y'all support me, however painfull for me it may become

Thanks for reading...

~fragile

**Jammy** · 10-29-2002, 05:49 PM

I support you frag and there are a couple of others that I know of at Team Endeavor that also support you. I may be small-time but I feel that all who crunch for Seti are (or should be) involved.

Jammy

Originally posted by fRaGgLe
I am on a mission to show these cheats up for the scum that they actually are. I hope that y'all support me, however painfull for me it may become

Thanks for reading...

~fragile [/B]

**Jetta** · 10-29-2002, 06:49 PM

frag, I think you have the support of most of us stats junkies!

Well at least us stats junkies that arent afraid to howl and growl at the cheaters and cheater sympathizers! Thank you!

**IronBits** · 10-29-2002, 06:58 PM

For the record...
I support Frag in this endevour to root out the cheaters.

Too bad they (cheaters) had to ruin it for so many, but then again, some people just can't handle the fact that there might be someone out there having more fun than they are.

**Matrix** · 10-29-2002, 07:02 PM

Hello Frag,

I just want you to know that your hard work is not going un-noticed at BBR Team Starfire.

I don't speak for the team but I do know of many that feel the same way as I do on the problem.

I for one hope this forthcoming article in ZDNet will wake up Berkeley and make them take action in regards to these cheaters!

~Matrix

**fRaGgLe** · 10-29-2002, 07:37 PM

/me shrugs

Gee thanks guys, and gurlz

I realise that this is a tough subject, but I feel very strongly about it.....

**Jammy** · 10-29-2002, 07:45 PM

No problem frag!

There are many of us who believe in you and the point you are trying to make!

Too bad that Seti@Netherlands are such a bunch of spoil-sports with their childish antics. The posts that I did read are immature and oh so juvenile. They act like a bunch of kids whose candy stash is being threatened, lol.

Jammy

Originally posted by fRaGgLe
/me shrugs

Gee thanks guys, and gurlz

I realise that this is a tough subject, but I feel very strongly about it.....

**Kosmaj** · 10-29-2002, 09:49 PM

Any news when will ZD-Net publish/post the article about cheating?

**MAD-ness** · 10-30-2002, 03:03 AM

I have respect for S@NL, atleast for the leaders I have seen posting various places.

Rickman2, but especially Oscar, in his responses to Fragile in that thread on the S@NL forums.

He makes it pretty clear (to anyone with an open mind) that he feels that there is rampant cheating and that he agrees with Frag's specific examples, or atleast most of them.

However, he is also between a rock and a hard place.

a) there is nothing you can do to make a cheater leave a team

b) you don't want a cheating controversy to damage your team (since your team had no intent to participate in cheating in the first place)

c) you don't want to risk alienating even one legitimite crunchers, especially one with those kinds of resources.

These cheating scandals hurt SETI@home and they definitely hurt the top teams, specifically the top 3, with Ars (being the most vocal and open about it) perhaps taking the biggest hit.

I know of atleast one major SG producer who has moved most of his resources to another project, because he is so dismayed with the cheating situation in SETI.

This hurts us all and getting it fixed (or getting a final and absolute response from berkely) is going to hurt more.

Just keep in mind, those pointing out the cheats are not those who commited breeches of ethics, it is those who created, used and those who allowed or ignored the cheats who are responsible for any ethical violations.

**pointwood** · 10-30-2002, 05:11 AM

/me supports your efforts too!

**phlump** · 10-30-2002, 08:57 AM

I can't wait to see the story they write.

**Alpha_7** · 10-30-2002, 09:41 AM

Good Work Frag

Didn't know the cheating was so rampant, makes me think of
not returning to Seti... and sticking with DF which at present is far more enjoyable if a little more resource hungry.

Kind of takes some of the reward out of reaching certain milestones, when your not on a level playing field

Looks like a problem with no easy solution.

**Richard Clyne** · 10-30-2002, 10:51 AM

Frag, with you 100% on this, keep up the good work.

**Tax Bracket** · 10-30-2002, 11:28 AM

Well done Frag

**JTrinkle** · 10-30-2002, 12:43 PM

Frag,
you have 110% of my support in this matter.

whatever you need... just ask.. its yours

If the people over at the ars DCA need a place to hold the signatures for the letter they are drafting... I will make a special sub forum to hold them.

once again..just let me know

your friend,
-Jim

PS: I'm leaving town for ~24 hours so I won't be around 'til Thurs night.

**ECL** · 10-30-2002, 01:23 PM

It's up:

http://www.zdnet.com.au/newstech/sec...0269509,00.htm

**FoBoT** · 10-30-2002, 01:51 PM

thanks for the link ECL

**fRaGgLe** · 10-30-2002, 02:03 PM

So much for advanced copy.....

and so much for using my .nick too

never mind - at least it is accurate in its reporting.....

**Jammy** · 10-30-2002, 05:15 PM

Thanks ECL!

Jammy

Originally posted by ECL
It's up:

http://www.zdnet.com.au/newstech/sec...0269509,00.htm

**Jammy** · 10-30-2002, 05:25 PM

I have forwarded the link to your interview

to several of my close friends who crunch Seti.

Jammy

Originally posted by ECL
It's up:

http://www.zdnet.com.au/newstech/sec...0269509,00.htm

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Seti, Cheating and the press

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BRAVO FRAG!

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