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Thread: Wrapper talk

  1. #1
    Ancient Haggis Hound Angus's Avatar
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    Wrapper talk

    Has anyone noticed that although every other team is limited to one account, rechenkraft.net has 30+ members, and 20 actively racking up credits?

    Nice way to scam the stats - start a project and only open it to your own members.

    Similar to the way they got unsuspecting people to run dNET and a few other non-BOINC projects for the yoyo team.

  2. #2
    =>Team Joker<= LAURENU2's Avatar
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    You better watch it Angus
    The Project Gods will send you a bolt of WU's
    that will Crash your computer

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Angus View Post
    Has anyone noticed that although every other team is limited to one account, rechenkraft.net has 30+ members, and 20 actively racking up credits?

    Nice way to scam the stats - start a project and only open it to your own members.
    Any new project uses the computer of there institute to make first test on the project. So also we did it. Or do you blame also Rosetta, SIMAP and WCG for this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Angus View Post
    Similar to the way they got unsuspecting people to run dNET and a few other non-BOINC projects for the yoyo team.
    Not even 1 credit has gone to Rechenkraft.net team.

    I really do not know why you are so hostile?
    If you do not like these projects, than you must not join

    yoyo

  4. #4
    Ancient Haggis Hound Angus's Avatar
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    What about all those people who were running the non-BOINC dNETclients, who were lured into switching to your BOINC wrapper client were not allowed to get credit under their existing dNET account and team, and all the points went to a "yoyo@home" account?

    So, "yoyo@home" became a top team on dNET, instead of the users getting the points for their own team.

    Recommend: stay FAR AWAY from any project that this "yoyo" character is involved in.
    Last edited by Angus; 01-11-2010 at 03:46 AM.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Angus View Post
    What about all those people who were running the non-BOINC dNETclients, who were lured into switching to your BOINC wrapper client were not allowed to get credit under their existing dNET account and team, and all the points went to a "yoyo@home" account?

    So, "yoyo@home" became a top team on dNET, instead of the users getting the points for their own team.
    I explained that already several times.
    It must be avoided that a team/user gets credits twice, because there are stats sites (e.g. DV-Vault) which compares projects from both worlds.
    So either the team/user gets the credit in the Boinc world (in yoyo@home) or in the non-Boinc world (native dnet stats).

    The intention of yoyo@home was to bring new users to the native project (e.g. dnet). Therefore it should be as for other Boinc projects, the team/user stats should be in the Boinc world.
    To ensure this I assigned all users in the native project to a dummy team,
    - which is NOT listed in DC-Vault,
    - which ensures, that I do not assign the useres to our Rechenkraft.net team sometimes in the future.

    yoyo

  6. #6
    Administrator Bok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angus View Post
    What about all those people who were running the non-BOINC dNETclients, who were lured into switching to your BOINC wrapper client were not allowed to get credit under their existing dNET account and team, and all the points went to a "yoyo@home" account?

    So, "yoyo@home" became a top team on dNET, instead of the users getting the points for their own team.
    From what I recall, yoyo attempted to work with dnet so that the points were credited to individual users on dnet itself, but they were unwilling to make this happen. It was impossible to achieve without their help.

    Recommend: stay FAR AWAY from any project that this "yoyo" character is involved in.
    I, personally, think yoyo has done a great job with his projects and helping move BOINC itself forward.

    Bok

  7. #7
    Ancient Haggis Hound Angus's Avatar
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    Well. I don't agree.

    The non-BOINC projects - dNET, MUON, etc. - should accumulate the stats on their site, in their native mode.

    If yoyo can't accomodate that with his wrapper stuff, then he should just leave it alone, and go on to something else.

    He seems to play pretty fast and loose with user/team/project relationships.
    Last edited by Angus; 01-11-2010 at 10:52 AM.

  8. #8
    Well I have a different opinion and it seems that we do not come together. So let the users decide. The users who do not like yoyo@home will probably not join.

    bye

  9. #9
    =>Team Joker<= LAURENU2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angus View Post
    What about all those people who were running the non-BOINC dNETclients, who were lured into switching to your BOINC wrapper client were not allowed to get credit under their existing dNET account and team, and all the points went to a "yoyo@home" account?

    So, "yoyo@home" became a top team on dNET, instead of the users getting the points for their own team.

    Recommend: stay FAR AWAY from any project that this "yoyo" character is involved in.
    YoYo Angus does have some merit You act at a single member But with the support hundreds members pushing you, How can any of us even think of competing against you.
    To tell the truth You are the one reason I gave up my 1st place seat on MUON and stooped working it
    You might help some DC project But you are in my opinion vary Bad for the spirit of competition
    And competition is the driving force Behind DC-ing

    All statements above are my own opinions and my or may not be that of Free-DC

  10. #10
    Member zombie67's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LAURENU2 View Post
    YoYo Angus does have some merit You act at a single member But with the support hundreds members pushing you, How can any of us even think of competing against you.
    To tell the truth You are the one reason I gave up my 1st place seat on MUON and stooped working it
    You might help some DC project But you are in my opinion vary Bad for the spirit of competition
    And competition is the driving force Behind DC-ing

    All statements above are my own opinions and my or may not be that of Free-DC
    I disagree that the points go to yoyo (as in the user). Within BOINC, each user/team gets his own credits. Within the external projects, yoyo is just a name whip represents the whole BOINC community. It does not represent yoyo personally.

    And frankly, I think what yoyo is doing is GREAT for non-BOINC DC projects. They get a lot of CPU power that they otherwise would not get. And I would be willing to put money on it, that all the non-BOINC project admins that have signed up with yoyo are very HAPPY with the results.

    Does it mess with the non-BOINC stats a bit? Sure, because it looks like a single user has massive stats. But so long as people recognize what's going on, and treat the "yoyo" user as a team, no big deal.


  11. #11
    Ancient Haggis Hound Angus's Avatar
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    I disagree that the points go to yoyo (as in the user). Within BOINC, each user/team gets his own credits. Within the external projects, yoyo is just a name whip represents the whole BOINC community. It does not represent yoyo personally.
    But in the project's stats, it *is* yoyo who is getting credit, not the user who moved from the standalone to Boinc-wrapped client, expecting to get their deserved points, particularly if they use the same ID or email account in both systems. The teams also lose out, seeing their standings in the project sink as points are incorrectly awarded to some team called "yoyo", instead of their own team.

    And frankly, I think what yoyo is doing is GREAT for non-BOINC DC projects. They get a lot of CPU power that they otherwise would not get. And I would be willing to put money on it, that all the non-BOINC project admins that have signed up with yoyo are very HAPPY with the results.

    Does it mess with the non-BOINC stats a bit? Sure, because it looks like a single user has massive stats. But so long as people recognize what's going on, and treat the "yoyo" user as a team, no big deal.
    This is where you are wrong. It IS a big deal. Yoyo is STEALING those points that should be awarded to the user and team that did the work, in the PROJECT stats.

  12. #12
    =>Team Joker<= LAURENU2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zombie67 View Post
    I disagree that the points go to yoyo (as in the user). Within BOINC, each user/team gets his own credits. Within the external projects, yoyo is just a name whip represents the whole BOINC community. It does not represent yoyo personally.

    .
    YOU ARE TOTALLY WRONG HERE yoyo IS LISTED AS ONE USER

    You can see how strongly I feel about this with all the caps

    Think about it How can I even think about achieving tho top ten when I have to compete against 100-1000 members backing YOYO
    It is dam hard enough to fight the upstream battle against all the corporate IT member that use there Poisson to get points like NEZ did
    You are a fool if you think I am the only only that feel this resentment to Yoyo, I may be one of the few that have the Ba%% to express it

    Like I said Yoyo is BAD for the spirit of completion

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by LAURENU2 View Post
    YOU ARE TOTALLY WRONG HERE yoyo IS LISTED AS ONE USER
    In which stats?
    I do not see a yoyo in the OGR27 top10 (dnet stats are down, so I linked free-dc stats).

    In Muon stats boinc is listed without a place number.

    yoyo

  14. #14
    Administrator Bok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yoyo View Post
    In which stats?
    I do not see a yoyo in the OGR27 top10 (dnet stats are down, so I linked free-dc stats).

    In Muon stats boinc is listed without a place number.

    yoyo
    I don't display all OGR teams/users though (impossible) so that doesn't mean it's not there. As you say the stats are down at DNET so I can't look

    DPAD is interesting. Is that a recent decision to mark the user as non-ranked ? The boinc wrapper is certainly #1 in my stats as I just parse the csv files and generate my own rankings based on the values. It would be 'clumsy' to exclude a user from the way the rankings are done though doable.

    Personally I have no issue with it anyway I don't do non BOINC projects anymore.

    Bok

  15. #15
    Ancient Haggis Hound Angus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yoyo View Post
    in which stats?
    I do not see a yoyo in the ogr27 top10 (dnet stats are down, so i linked free-dc stats).

    In muon stats boinc is listed without a place number.

    Yoyo
    OGR 25 ? DPAD ? and don't distract from the issue by claiming it's called "boinc wrapper" now instead of "yoyo@home". It's still the same problem.


    If (for some unknown reason) I decided to run Muon inside your wrapper, my stats results would be included in the "bionic (bionic wrapper)" account, not in my existing Angus[Free-DC.org] account, and they also would not be included in the Free-DC team stats. Correct?

    How is that anything but totally WRONG? Why would I want to run anything that way? Give my stats results to someone else? NOT!
    Last edited by Angus; 01-13-2010 at 04:36 PM.

  16. #16
    Ancient Haggis Hound Angus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bok View Post
    I don't display all OGR teams/users though (impossible) so that doesn't mean it's not there. As you say the stats are down at DNET so I can't look

    DPAD is interesting. Is that a recent decision to mark the user as non-ranked ? The boinc wrapper is certainly #1 in my stats as I just parse the csv files and generate my own rankings based on the values. It would be 'clumsy' to exclude a user from the way the rankings are done though doable.

    Personally I have no issue with it anyway I don't do non BOINC projects anymore.

    Bok
    Isn't this a flip-flop from your old stance on this ?

  17. #17
    Administrator Bok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angus View Post
    OGR 25 ? DPAD ? and don't distract from the issue by claiming it's called "boinc wrapper" now instead of "yoyo@home". It's still the same problem.


    If (for some unknown reason) I decided to run Muon inside your wrapper, my stats results would be included in the "bionic (bionic wrapper)" account, not in my existing Angus[Free-DC.org] account, and they also would not be included in the Free-DC team stats. Correct?

    How is that anything but totally WRONG? Why would I want to run anything that way? Give my stats results to someone else? NOT!
    Angus,

    why the animosity? This is just your opinion. Others have different opinions. So you don't like it, don't run it.

    Let's take DPAD for example.

    BOINC makes it easier to run the projects, making DPAD much more accessible to the mainstream users who do not know how or don't want to run commandline programs.

    I'm sure Stephen Brooks is VERY happy getting all the extra results that having a wrapper from yoyo brings. Isn't thatwhat it's about ? If you absolutely insist on pursuing it, lobby him to create his own BOINC project where the users would then be unique. Just because it's extremely difficult to do this externally within the boinc wrapper does not mean that DPAD should not still benefit from the extra resources available.

    Why would you think that Yoyo is doing this to try and portray himself as a POWER-user in any shape or form, he's just bringing more users to projects. All I can see is that he's made every effort within reason to show that this is not the case.

    Bok

    p.s. your stats results still belong to you, and you alone, within the Yoyo@Home project.

  18. #18
    Administrator Bok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angus View Post
    Isn't this a flip-flop from your old stance on this ?
    Wouldn't call it a flip-flop, just a much better understanding of the big picture. And a lack of interest in team/user races.

  19. #19
    Member zombie67's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LAURENU2 View Post
    YOU ARE TOTALLY WRONG HERE yoyo IS LISTED AS ONE USER

    Yes, we are saying the same thing. One "user" that represents the efforts of the whole BOINC community. It doesn't represent yoyo's own personal contributions. Everyone knows this, so no big deal. Just look at that "user" like it is a team.


  20. #20
    Old Timer jasong's Avatar
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    If people are going to go for top-10 and thinks the yoyo user is a problem, why not simply subtract 1 from whatever your rank is? Everyone who's anyone in BOINC(by credits) is going to be aware of the situation with the yoyo user, so top-11 puts you in the top-10 in the minds of everyone who's opinion matters in this.

  21. #21
    Ancient Haggis Hound Angus's Avatar
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    The problem I have is that if you have a considerable pile of results from the native client, you CAN'T use the boinc wrapper to contribute to that same account.

    I don't care a bit for the science of any of these projects. I've made that clear before, and I have no problems repeating it again. There are only a few that are real efforts, most are just playthings for grad students. To me, it's all about competition, and when something like this gets in the way I get ticked off and start ranting. Take it or leave it.

    And I'm NOT running any yoyo wrapper projects, never did, and never will. I just think it creates an unfair situation.
    Last edited by Angus; 01-13-2010 at 09:53 PM.

  22. #22
    Ancient Haggis Hound Angus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zombie67 View Post
    Yes, we are saying the same thing. One "user" that represents the efforts of the whole BOINC community. It doesn't represent yoyo's own personal contributions. Everyone knows this, so no big deal. Just look at that "user" like it is a team.

    But, for example, if XYZ team had contributed a bunch running the standalone client, and a bunch running the wrapped client, you cannot see the COMBINED results for that team, because the wrapper stuff is all recorded on the native stats as this mystery "boinc wrapper" team.

  23. #23
    SETI.Germany Saenger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angus View Post
    I don't care a bit for the science of any of these projects. I've made that clear before, and I have no problems repeating it again. There are only a few that are real efforts, most are just playthings for grad students. To me, it's all about competition, and when something like this gets in the way I get ticked off and start ranting. Take it or leave it.
    To Yoyo it's mostly about the science of the projects, and that's absolutely fine. It's the science that matters first, competition comes second. Negative ranters like you shouldn't bother him (or anyone else) in any way, you no much more than a troll.

  24. #24
    =>Team Joker<= LAURENU2's Avatar
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    Play nice Saenger Angus is not a troll He is a respected member of Free-DC
    and just has a different opinion then yours.
    That is NOT a reason to throw stones
    Just remember we may not think alike but we are all DC'ing Brothers
    Come on everybody a group

  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Angus View Post
    But, for example, if XYZ team had contributed a bunch running the standalone client, and a bunch running the wrapped client, you cannot see the COMBINED results for that team, because the wrapper stuff is all recorded on the native stats as this mystery "boinc wrapper" team.
    If you run the boinc wrapper, than you get your credits on your boinc account and also your boinc team gets the credits. This is what boinc users expects and it should be as expected by boinc users, this was the intention to bring more users to the native projects. Boinc users will see there credits in boincstats.com and formular boinc and other sites for competition.
    If credits would be also credited on the native project, then a user and team would get credits twice, which I think is not fair.

    And look to the DPAD stats
    http://www.stephenbrooks.org/muon1/
    1. Team is Team Anandtech
    and
    1. User is [TA]amd.borg

    Yes the boinc wrapper is listed there, but without a rank. Or do you mean there should be a separation line between the boinc wrapper and the 1. user or the amount which was dony via Boinc should be listed else where?

    yoyo

  26. #26
    Ancient Haggis Hound Angus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yoyo View Post
    If you run the boinc wrapper, than you get your credits on your boinc account and also your boinc team gets the credits. This is what boinc users expects and it should be as expected by boinc users, this was the intention to bring more users to the native projects. Boinc users will see there credits in boincstats.com and formular boinc and other sites for competition.
    If credits would be also credited on the native project, then a user and team would get credits twice, which I think is not fair.

    And look to the DPAD stats
    http://www.stephenbrooks.org/muon1/
    1. Team is Team Anandtech
    and
    1. User is [TA]amd.borg

    Yes the boinc wrapper is listed there, but without a rank. Or do you mean there should be a separation line between the boinc wrapper and the 1. user or the amount which was dony via Boinc should be listed else where?

    yoyo
    A "wrapped" non-boinc project should accumulate the stats on their native stats site, for the native site user and team, using the same accounts as if run outside the wrapper. Report the finished work to the project using the correct user native accounts, and let the projects produce their correct unified stats. Do NOT export stats to BOINC stats consolidators for projects that exist outside of BOINC.

    There should be NO BOINC stats generated for those. They are not BOINC projects, and don't need to be considered in any BOINC stats summary.

    You have it completely backwards.
    Last edited by Angus; 01-14-2010 at 03:18 AM.

  27. #27
    SETI.Germany Saenger's Avatar
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    As it's not the first time I read Angus in this very hostile, mainly ranting, not listening, my-way-or-the-highway style about his personal view of how things should be done, everything else is just utterly wrong, I came to the (for me) well founded conclusion that he is plainly a troll, nobody to take serious. The main problem with him is imho that his bullying attitude is detrimental to new users who may think he's typical for DC.

  28. #28
    Ancient Haggis Hound Angus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saenger View Post
    As it's not the first time I read Angus in this very hostile, mainly ranting, not listening, my-way-or-the-highway style about his personal view of how things should be done, everything else is just utterly wrong, I came to the (for me) well founded conclusion that he is plainly a troll, nobody to take serious. The main problem with him is imho that his bullying attitude is detrimental to new users who may think he's typical for DC.
    When I'm right, I'm right, and I'll defend my opinion to the end.

    At least I'm not making personal attacks like some.

  29. #29
    SETI.Germany Saenger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angus View Post
    A "wrapped" non-boinc project should accumulate the stats on their native stats site, for the native site user and team, using the same accounts as if run outside the wrapper. Report the finished work to the project using the correct user native accounts, and let the projects produce their correct unified stats. Do NOT export stats to BOINC stats consolidators for projects that exist outside of BOINC.

    There should be NO BOINC stats generated for those. They are not BOINC projects, and don't need to be considered in any BOINC stats summary.

    You have it completely backwards.
    They are part of a BOINC project, so they should get BOINC credits.
    If they want to maintain their own stats it's up to them to do this, it's not Yoyos problem. WCG somehow managed this, though of course there is the possible problem of double crediting on all-DC stats sites as this here (doesn't apply to WCG, as they don't have a client running outside, just had one in parallel "inside").

    Yoyo did some very laudable and good work to get new users to the science of the off-BOINC projects, and he did so with the consent of the admins and scientists of the original project. Science is the main thing of the projects, credits/points/WU-count are a nice add-on. Getting more science done is far more important than getting stats right, but of course stats should be OK nevertheless. And in regard with yoyo@home they are.

  30. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Angus View Post
    When I'm right, I'm right, and I'll defend my opinion to the end.
    You are moving not one piece from your position. You even do not honor that on OGR-27 (and ogr-26, but can't check it) is no more a single yoyo@home user any more. You do not honor, that boinc_wrapper is without a ranking number in DPAD stats. You do not honor, that yoyo@home feeds the Boinc community to the native projects which is 5-10% of dnet ogr power, 30-45% of DPAD, more than 50% of evolution@home.

    For me it seems that you are not able to jump out of your view and look into the view of the majority of the Boinc users, you are probably not able to make any compromise.

    Quote Originally Posted by Angus View Post
    At least I'm not making personal attacks like some.
    To be honest, I'm feeling it different.

    yoyo

  31. #31
    Old Fart Bigred's Avatar
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    And I thought this was a thread about RNA World.
    19 primes found. The largest: 1351*2^617684+1 (185945 digits)

  32. #32
    Free-DC Retire gopher_yarrowzoo's Avatar
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    Okay BACK on TOPIC!

    Okay Angus, Saenger, yoyo IF you want to "discuss" the merits of the yoyo@home wrapper and other BOINC related things please do so in the correct forum which FYI for you all IS NOT THIS ONE!
    Consider this a friendly reminder do try and get along boys and girls.
    Retired from Free-DC...
    I don't have the time or money to help anymore...

  33. #33
    SETI.Germany Saenger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gopher_yarrowzoo View Post
    Okay Angus, Saenger, yoyo IF you want to "discuss" the merits of the yoyo@home wrapper and other BOINC related things please do so in the correct forum which FYI for you all IS NOT THIS ONE!
    Consider this a friendly reminder do try and get along boys and girls.
    Can anyone of the admins move the off-topic posts to another part of this forum?

  34. #34
    Administrator Bok's Avatar
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    Posts moved to a separate thread.

    Keep it nice.

  35. #35
    SETI.Germany Saenger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angus View Post
    At least I'm not making personal attacks like some.
    You're kidding, right? Nearly every second post by you in this thread included personal attacks on Yoyo. You started (this thread / the heated debate in the other thread) by a post with personal attacks on Yoyo. If you really think you made no personal attacks you're in desperate need to adjust yourself to reality again as you would be far off in this regard.

    Edit:
    I recieved two of this:
    I can see them in my incriminated posts, I can't see any in Angus' insulting posts. Are they only to see for the posters themself?
    Last edited by Saenger; 01-14-2010 at 09:17 AM.

  36. #36
    Administrator Bok's Avatar
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    No, they are there for all to see. I haven't really looked at infractions within vbulletin much I must admit.

    Perhaps I'll check up on the vbulletin options in this area and see what is available.

    Bok

  37. #37
    SETI.Germany Saenger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bok View Post
    No, they are there for all to see.
    If so, why do Angus' insults go unpunished? Has he a free ride to insult others? Or is he past it?

  38. #38
    Administrator Bok's Avatar
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    None of his posts had been reported by anyone at that time.

    No-one is above anyone else here at Free-DC.

    If this degenerates any more though, I'm locking the thread.

  39. #39
    Ancient Haggis Hound Angus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saenger View Post
    You're kidding, right? Nearly every second post by you in this thread included personal attacks on Yoyo. You started (this thread / the heated debate in the other thread) by a post with personal attacks on Yoyo. If you really think you made no personal attacks you're in desperate need to adjust yourself to reality again as you would be far off in this regard.
    Since Yoyo named his "project" after himself (is that a hint?) , it's pretty hard to refer to it and keep the two entities separate.

  40. #40
    Free-DC Retire gopher_yarrowzoo's Avatar
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    Exclamation

    Okay Enough I've read quite enough thank you very much and Angus this isn't aimed at anyone.. Bok I'm closing this thread before it gets any more hostile...

    Angus - I see you point of view it screws with the stats but the science behind it gets done. Just remember what the spirit of Free-DC is about please.

    YoYo - Yes well naming a project after yourself is always going to draw aggro at some point or other looks like that time is now. I can only commend the effort you put in but it is a pity you couldn't have when you wrapped it made sure that the individuals who were sending in the data that it went to them and showed up on the non-boinc stats should be possible might be something to look into in the future.

    Saenger - No Angus post won't go unpunished, they are logged in my head and the infarction system is there and will be put in to use should this continue..

    --- Thread Moved and re-opened as per request ---
    Please do not continue the personal attacks or I will just close the thread once more
    Last edited by gopher_yarrowzoo; 01-16-2010 at 03:48 PM. Reason: update
    Retired from Free-DC...
    I don't have the time or money to help anymore...

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