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Thread: Outlnder joining

  1. #1
    Registered User JohnWayne's Avatar
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    Outlnder joining

    I've noticed that outlnder has joined Free-DC in many projects. But, while his scores have left Ars Technica, they have not really moved to Free-DC. Is there a reason for this??

    One can see his scores in the stats for Free-DC, but they are not actually being added.

  2. #2
    Administrator Bok's Avatar
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    In BOINC projects the score you get whilst part of a team remains with that team (with the exception of Climate Prediction). Your team only gains the points you crunch whilst with that team.

    Great to see Outlnder here, we have pretty good relations with most all of the users at ArsTechnica.

    Outlnder

  3. #3
    Registered User JohnWayne's Avatar
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    So then, why didn't he move over with 0 points. What is the purpose of showing him #1 on Free-DC in PrimeGrid at 11+ million points?

  4. #4
    Administrator Bok's Avatar
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    Because with the export of data from the projects they don't split a users data between the teams they contributed to, so there is no simple way to do it. Sure it is *possible* to store the data as movement is made but it would be incredibly convoluted and potentially data intensive to try to hold the individual totals. Instead of one row per user per project I would have to store multiples.

    I do, however store what their points total was in moving into the team

    here for instance.

    Note that BOINC project pages themselves don't differentiate it so it shows Outlnder as the #1 on the team correctly

    It might be interesting to have a page showing individual movement though. I can easily do that, that same page would show the contributions to each team.

    Code:
    mysql> select stat_date,fromteam,toteam,metric1,team from boinc_movement where proj = 'pgrid' and id = 3550 order by stat_date;
    +------------+----------+--------+-----------------+--------------+
    | stat_date  | fromteam | toteam | metric1         | team         |
    +------------+----------+--------+-----------------+--------------+
    | 2008-04-16 |        0 |    182 |   648544.829434 | Ars Technica |
    | 2010-04-29 |      182 |      0 | 11738191.796552 | NULL         |
    | 2010-05-09 |        0 |     95 | 11765627.126508 | Free-DC      |
    +------------+----------+--------+-----------------+--------------+
    3 rows in set (0.05 sec)
    Bok

  5. #5
    Registered User JohnWayne's Avatar
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    I just don't think it is right for outlnder to be #1 on Free-DC's teams when he didn't contribute anything to Free-DC. His Free-DC team total should be 0 until he has contributed fro Free-DC.

  6. #6
    Old Fart Bigred's Avatar
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    19 primes found. The largest: 1351*2^617684+1 (185945 digits)

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnWayne View Post
    I just don't think it is right for outlnder to be #1 on Free-DC's teams when he didn't contribute anything to Free-DC. His Free-DC team total should be 0 until he has contributed fro Free-DC.
    Surely you didn't think that BOINC was perfect did you?????
    There's lots of warts with the system, but that's what it is. Unfortunately as Bok said, there isn't any reasonable realistic way to handle this within the confines of the system design.

  8. #8
    Dungeon Master alpha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mustard View Post
    Surely you didn't think that BOINC was perfect did you?????
    There's lots of warts with the system, but that's what it is. Unfortunately as Bok said, there isn't any reasonable realistic way to handle this within the confines of the system design.
    Actually, I don't think BOINC or any of the project scoring is at fault here. I think credits attributed to you under a particular team should stay with that team if/when you move. The alternative has been used on non-BOINC projects in the past and I remember lots of incidents where things got messy.

    I do see JohnWayne's point though, but if there's no easy way to solve it as Bok already suggested then we'll just have to live with it and move on. Surely outlnder is just another target to aim for, even if his Free-DC scores thus far are only virtual?

  9. #9
    Ancient Programmer Paratima's Avatar
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    Me votes with alpha on this one. You can argue the point thing either way and believe me, it's been beaten to death and then some. What's done is done. And yeah, the system's a bit strange, but we can live with it. Heh, I was sure surprised when he "appeared" ahead of me in Poem@Home.

    Outlnder is only continuing an old tradition. Free-DC was started by escapees from Ars looking for a less stressful environment.

    Welcome, outlnder. Good ta see ya! If you stay, that's cool. If you decide to move on, we'll adjust. There's precedent either way.
    HOME: A physical construct for keeping rain off your computers.

  10. #10
    DinkaTronic Shish's Avatar
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    I'll third that and other comments from all.
    As a long time DC'er from RC whatever and Seti and an escapee to the more peaceful but not less argumentative (free and frank discussions?) climes of Free-DC from my only other site of Ars and old enough to remeber 1200/75 bit modem international calls to US numbered BBS and huge telephone bills I appreciate the argument but when you sign up to a project on whatever system you do it or not as free will and according to their rules. Causes a lot of controversy sometimes and keeps a lot of sites running but them's the way DC works and some people like one system of DC some like another but we all appreciate the give and take that ensues with as little acrimony as possible (especially now I'm getting old or summat but not too cranky ).
    Nice to see Outlinder and all other members old and new.
    Sorry for my lack of contribution of late with both comments and actual results, which no doubt some will not miss, but my involvement with life, health the universe et alles is interfering with my passions and my computers remain in lockdown whilst it's all change in every other respect of my life which is taking a little while longer than expected.
    Greetings to all and good health, wealth and happiness. Not too easy working from a new Android phone but do-able as warranted so while I may show as logged in sometimes, I may not actually be online but always available via email without which I still can't force myself to lose
    Best and kind regards to all at Free-DC and to Bok especially for his continued forbearance and work here despite him being an ex-pat Sand Dancer Geordie
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  11. #11
    Old Fart Bigred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnWayne View Post
    I just don't think it is right for outlnder to be #1 on Free-DC's teams when he didn't contribute anything to Free-DC. His Free-DC team total should be 0 until he has contributed fro Free-DC.
    Let me see if I can shed a little light on this subject since I showed up here not too long ago with shall we say a whole pocket full of credits.

    First of all the total credits is the number he has earned not the team. If you change teams every month you will always take your total credit with you. If you have never been on a team but have a lot of credit then when you join a team that credit shows up in the team total. In this case he came from another team so his credit stayed with the other team. The credit he earns while a member of this team counts toward the team total but his total credit will always be his because he has earned it.

    When you look at the stats you will see the members of the team and how much credit they have earned not how much they have earned for the team.

    If you look here you will see that the team has a total credit for Milkyway of about 80,000,000. If you scroll down and start adding up the individual totals you will see that it is much more than 80Mil. This is because outinder and myself had a bunch of credit before joining here.


    Schools out now.
    outinder, first beer is on me.
    19 primes found. The largest: 1351*2^617684+1 (185945 digits)

  12. #12
    Registered User JohnWayne's Avatar
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    So if someone wanted to be very industrious and add up all the Ars contributors points in a project that outlnder participated in, they would not get the teams stated totals, they would get a total minus outlnder's points? correct??

    Is it possible to rename the acoount at Ars, "retired-outlnder" or "retro-outlnder" or "moved-outlnder" or maybe just "ghost accounts"?? And then when that person moves to another team, he would have 0 cobblestones.

    There should be a place holder with those points visible, not just counted but not not seen.

  13. #13
    Free-DC Semi-retire gopher_yarrowzoo's Avatar
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    Yes but that is the point Bok was trying to make it would and has done in the past made the stats DB look messy and not just here on the individual project Stats output you any idea how many rows are involved for just the live stats as it's not a table per project *which is possible but plain stupid* but 1 table with 1 row per user per project holding the last 28 days of data
    now do math - I think the last time I looked it was heading for if not beyond 6 million rows which isn't actually that much if you divide it up by the projects / users involved..
    I helped redevelop the stats interface and so I know a lot of what goes on behind not the scripts that do the loading of the DB, I leave that to the experts AMDave n Bok ..
    So say "outlndr" leaves Ars-Tech (been there I eject too)..
    unless the individual project actually TRACKS this and stores it and exports that store in a "team export stats file" or the like we ain't going to track it as messy ain't the word.. I mean we do track team joiners and leavers but only when they join / leave not what stats they bring in..(no way to 0 the score)
    Hmm I'm done here if that doesn't either A) explain it or B) confuse the hell out of him I don't know what will.
    Semi-retired from Free-DC...
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  14. #14
    Administrator Bok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnWayne View Post
    So if someone wanted to be very industrious and add up all the Ars contributors points in a project that outlnder participated in, they would not get the teams stated totals, they would get a total minus outlnder's points? correct??

    Is it possible to rename the acoount at Ars, "retired-outlnder" or "retro-outlnder" or "moved-outlnder" or maybe just "ghost accounts"?? And then when that person moves to another team, he would have 0 cobblestones.

    There should be a place holder with those points visible, not just counted but not not seen.
    All of it is *possible* but highly intricate. We would, in effect be 'hacking' the data from the xml stats and I want to avoid that. Putting it plainly though I try to record everything but in the end I want the stats to reflect exactly how the projects show them and because the projects only export one set of statistics per user in their current team that is how it is shown.

    Seventeen or Bust and Folding@Home are the only projects I know of where you actually have separate users when you switch teams. Both are nonBOINC and it makes the external stats rather difficult too.

    What I may do, because I keep track of the movement is attempt to display the contributions to the team for a user, but it will be for display purposes only. I'll send you a PM when I've done it, if indeed it's feasible.
    As a DBA, I can already imagine what a pain it will be if a user joins/leaves/joins/leaves etc - no quick and dirty way to achieve that in sql at least not in the denormalized table schema I've created.


    Bok

    EDIT: just playing with the data a little.

    Code:
    mysql> select a.metric1 - b.metric1 from boinc_user a join boinc_movement b on a.proj = b.proj and a.id = b.id where a.proj = 'pgrid' and b.toteam = 95 and a.id = 3550;
    +-----------------------+
    | a.metric1 - b.metric1 |
    +-----------------------+
    |       1649.8095360007 |
    +-----------------------+
    1 row in set (0.48 sec)
    So that is the contribution since joining but that query would fail miserably if there were multiple entries in the movement table where toteam=95 or indeed where the latest one was not 95

  15. #15
    Registered User JohnWayne's Avatar
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    Sorry, didn't mean for this to be a big deal, was just wondering. AND, since I know nothing about how the stats are done, I should be keeping my mouth shut.

  16. #16
    Administrator Bok's Avatar
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    No problem at all, always interested in getting fresh ideas as well as keeping me on my toes database wise

  17. #17
    =>Team Joker<= LAURENU2's Avatar
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    I Like Outlnder

  18. #18
    Registered User JohnWayne's Avatar
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    Looks like something went right and wrong in the same event. Free-DC stats gave Free-DC all outlnder's points for Wiefeich, but the Wieferich site didn't.

    Since Free-DC pick them up, Free-DC moved up 3 or 4 positions in the DC Vault.

    That's what I was hoping to do. Well, I can move us up one more to 4th place overall.

  19. #19
    Administrator Bok's Avatar
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    Yup, nonBOINC, so they transfer the points between points. Eon would do the same. The old Distributed Folding did it too - now I'm showing my DC age

  20. #20
    Registered User JohnWayne's Avatar
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    But Wieferich stats didn't transfer the points, only Free-DC stats did.

  21. #21
    =>Team Joker<= LAURENU2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnWayne View Post
    But Wieferich stats didn't transfer the points, only Free-DC stats did.
    who cares about the points We have Outlnder

  22. #22
    I'm not doing DC anymore, so I am giving JohnWayne all my points. I hope it works out.

    And good luck to you all.

  23. #23
    Administrator Bok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnWayne View Post
    But Wieferich stats didn't transfer the points, only Free-DC stats did.
    Hmm, that may be a bug either in the stats they export for me or mine. I've likely 'marked' the row as old - yes it's flagged for deletion.

    Let's see what happens on next update..

  24. #24
    =>Team Joker<= LAURENU2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ARS-outlnder View Post
    I'm not doing DC anymore, so I am giving JohnWayne all my points. I hope it works out.

    And good luck to you all.
    Why What Happend outlnder

  25. #25
    I had a deal go bad in the Agora classified. He claimed I didn't refund $25 after I sent him a MO and it was cashed. He went to the Mods who bullied and harrassed me more than tried to come to a settlement. They wanted proof I sent the MO and I wanted proof the other guy didn't cash it. My side of the arguement got lost real fast.

    After a couple of weeks I refunded an additional $12.50, claiming that now both parties were out half their money and shipping costs. This wasn't acceptable to the Mods. Some other guys got involved and I guess a lot of emails were sent and a bunch of hurt feelings occurred.

    I was banned from Ars Technica so I decided this was a good time to leave DC. I moved most of my accounts to Free-DC, gave my gear to a friend who is slowly selling it as he uses it, and retired in all aspects.

    So, I am no longer a DC addict. I'm surprised how much time I have to do things.

    Anyone know a way to transfer all BOINC projects cobbles to JohnWayne??

  26. #26
    Administrator Bok's Avatar
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    That is really bad, sorry to hear about it

    Only way to transfer points is to let him have your account - change the email address and name on the account and any project where he already has an account, he will have to change the email address on that first as it has to be unique across the project.

    There is no way to merge the accounts.

    Bok

  27. #27
    =>Team Joker<= LAURENU2's Avatar
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    Well I'm Sure you know Outlnder that you will find a safe place to play and post
    here at Free-DC
    Last edited by LAURENU2; 05-16-2010 at 07:54 PM.

  28. #28
    Registered User JohnWayne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bok View Post
    Only way to transfer points is to let him have your account - change the email address and name on the account and any project where he already has an account, he will have to change the email address on that first as it has to be unique across the project.
    Bok
    However, wouldn't my name and outlnder's email address create a different cross project identifier?

  29. #29
    Administrator Bok's Avatar
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    yes, cpid is a hash of the email address only, but if he changed the email address to yours and then as long as you were attached to the project on a machine it should sync up to be the same as your current one in theory. Doesn't help projects no longer online but I can take care of those in my database at least..

  30. #30
    Registered User JohnWayne's Avatar
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    OK, I've changed my email address to outlnder's in the projects I am running. I also changed it for this Forum. Approximately how long will it take for my stats to change over?

  31. #31
    Administrator Bok's Avatar
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    It depends on the project and on when you do an update or crunch a wu. Looks like the cpid has split now - Stats search though it looks like the 'name' has not been changed. Did you change the name on each of the accounts also?

    I would just try with one of them, say Primegrid. Go to the account setup on and make sure the email address and name are changed to your own, update the project from one of your pc's, then on the next xml export my stats should pick up the change. If it all works then repeat

  32. #32
    Registered User JohnWayne's Avatar
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    I've changed all projects that JohnWayne has done over to outlnder's email. But it doesn't seem to be working. I will continue to keep trying.

    I think the problem is that outlnder is not running anymore, thus not creating a new cpid. I need to run a WU from every project with his new email addy.
    Last edited by JohnWayne; 05-17-2010 at 05:18 PM.

  33. #33
    Now where did I leave my car? CanoeBeyond's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ARS-outlnder View Post
    I had a deal go bad in the Agora classified. He claimed I didn't refund $25 after I sent him a MO and it was cashed. He went to the Mods who bullied and harrassed me more than tried to come to a settlement. They wanted proof I sent the MO and I wanted proof the other guy didn't cash it. My side of the arguement got lost real fast.

    After a couple of weeks I refunded an additional $12.50, claiming that now both parties were out half their money and shipping costs. This wasn't acceptable to the Mods. Some other guys got involved and I guess a lot of emails were sent and a bunch of hurt feelings occurred.

    I was banned from Ars Technica so I decided this was a good time to leave DC. I moved most of my accounts to Free-DC, gave my gear to a friend who is slowly selling it as he uses it, and retired in all aspects.
    There are a number of us that are very upset about the ridiculous way you were treated. There may be be more changes coming
    Out of curiosity, what happened before that caused people to leave Ars and start Free-DC?

    BTW, is there a way to change my user name to something else?

  34. #34
    =>Team Joker<= LAURENU2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beyond (Ars) View Post
    BTW, is there a way to change my user name to something else?
    Like what Beyond Free-DC

  35. #35
    Administrator Bok's Avatar
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    IIRC it was due to leadership not budging on a number of issues that a lot of the users wanted but it was even before my time here. I'm sure some of the early threads here discuss it.

    admins can certainly change usernames, I don't think users have the ability, at least they didn't way back when.

  36. #36
    Now where did I leave my car? CanoeBeyond's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bok View Post
    IIRC it was due to leadership not budging on a number of issues that a lot of the users wanted but it was even before my time here. I'm sure some of the early threads here discuss it.

    admins can certainly change usernames, I don't think users have the ability, at least they didn't way back when.
    Care to change my username to CanoeBeyond?

  37. #37
    Administrator Bok's Avatar
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  38. #38
    Free-DC Semi-retire gopher_yarrowzoo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bok View Post
    Darn it book ya beat me to it I was just about to do that LOL
    Semi-retired from Free-DC...
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