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Thread: Paid project? Sort of...

  1. #1

    Paid project? Sort of...

    Hello Free-DCers! I know it's been a LONGGGGGGGG time since I've been around. I've been up to many things including backpacking Europe recently.

    Anyway, I wanted to open up a little discussion here and see what everyone thought about it.

    Who hear has heard of BitCoins? It's been in the news a little bit recently, especially on the tech news sites. The currency greatly interested me and I started digging a little deeper. It's a P2P currency essentially where the users actually help process transactions via hashtables and make sure no one is double dipping. Thereby keeping the integrity of the currency, while verifying transactions that have taken place or "letting them clear". While I won't explain it all (if this interests you then please by all means do a bunch of reading on it too), there are ways to make money off processing BitCoin transactions without putting anything into it other than the hardware you currently own. This is definitely for people (like Free-DCers) who may already own a large number of GPUs that are CUDA/OpenCL capable. As the currency gains interest and more people move money into it, the hashtable automatically increases in processing difficulty (likewise it decreases if it begins to have currency removed from it). Now it's set to generate 50Bitcoins per designated "block" through January 2012. At which time it will cut in half every year after (25 BCpb, 12.5, etc etc) until it maxes out at 21,000,000 million bitcoins in circulation. So, the rest of this phase and the next make economical sense to participate in (depending on how much you pay for electricity and hardware).

    Unfortunately, there is no real gain anymore by just trying to participate solo because the hashtable is too large and blocks need broken up into work units and divided out essentially. In comes "pools". There are large pools now setup that individual users can join. It's a group effort (and there are different payout structures depending on the pool), and the money gets divided out at the end of each "round" of crunching (solving the right block ((confirming the transaction)) and moving the hashtable forward). Now, I'm not sure how much GPU power Free-DC may have, or the level of participation here anymore, but if it were large enough, then it would be feasible to create the forums own pool. Lots of power + less people = more bitcoins to divide less ways. It doesn't solve any math problems, or help towards a cure for diseases, but it is a form of distributed computing I found very interesting (and potentially rewarding to many if the power is there).

    There's a LOT of reading behind it all it kinda get the whole thing. It's not easy to make sound simple because it's just not simple. I'm not sure I fully understand it still. But I do have a miner working in a pool right now. The currency fluctuates constantly like any currency, but currently 1 Bitcoin is worth about $19/USD as of this posting.

    Is there anyone who can look more into maybe creating a pool just for Free-DC? Also, Free-DC members, are there any of you with GPUs that would want to switch to something like this and start finding blocks collectively? The more who work on it the faster they're done and the better it pays out. CPUs CAN participate but generate MUCH less work and would not earn as much as people using GPUs.

    1 block = 50 bitcoins = $950USD right now. Now that's not per person, but there could be discussion of pay structures (there are 3 types used currently) to spread it evenly so those who do more work can get more credit like in any project.

    So, let's hear it guys! Sorry if the post is kind of jumpy and sloppy. Lots of stuff to put in here and not easy to think about it all.

    -Moose
    Distributed Hold'em


  2. #2
    =>Team Joker<= LAURENU2's Avatar
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    I need more input

  3. #3
    =>Team Joker<= LAURENU2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LAURENU2 View Post
    I need more input
    Like a link or somthing

  4. #4
    Old Fart Bigred's Avatar
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    Very interesting concept. I have an abundance of GPUs that in esence could be earning me money instead of just looking for Prime numbers. This is especially interesting for me since I don't pay for electricty.

    I'll give it a try after the upcoming Primegrid challenge. If Bok can figure out how to start a Free-DC pool, I'll join that as well. With Bok running the pool he can collect fees that will help offset the cost of running the site and I'll earn money to buy more hardware. Sounds like a win-win situation to me.
    19 primes found. The largest: 1351*2^617684+1 (185945 digits)

  5. #5
    Old Fart Bigred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LAURENU2 View Post
    Like a link or somthing
    Try this.
    19 primes found. The largest: 1351*2^617684+1 (185945 digits)

  6. #6
    Administrator Bok's Avatar
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    Read this thread over at Anandtech about it and how it's possibly being used for illegal means and may be targeted by the feds...

    Not that I've read any more than casually about it.

  7. #7
    =>Team Joker<= LAURENU2's Avatar
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    I still do not know what they mine

  8. #8
    Heya guys!

    Yes I've read the stuff about it too with the Feds and all. They don't like it because they don't have control over it or a way to monitor it since it's very much like a torrent p2p network. Just because some people choose to use it for illegal purposes doesn't make it illegal. And there are a few people in the Senate rolling something around about trying to shut it down or make it illegal, but there hasn't been a committee investigating or anything yet. I'm not certain if there will be. Bitcoins aren't untraceable, it's just difficult, and since someone pointed out to a legislator that you -can- use the money illegally if you choose, he made it his battle cry to act like he's doing something. I'm not concerned with the legal issues at all because it's not like Free-DC is joining the tor network after mining to buy large piles of dope to share. We're just helping confirm transactions.

    @laurenu2

    Here's a wiki link to help explain mining: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/How_bitco...Bitcoin_mining

    It's all a bit confusing to explain, but I'll try to make it as easy as I can. I had to reread the article a couple times myself when I looked it up.

    Basically, since Bitcoin is a distributed p2p currency, there needs to be a way of approving transactions without every user having an individual log file that could easily be modified to allow double spending. The log is therefor a hashtable that sent to all nodes and the longest hashtable is considered the "true" one by the nodes, meaning all transactions within the hashtable are valid. As new transactions take place, blocks are generated and need solved to add the block to the chain.

    The currency is set to grow at a predetermined pace until it reaches 21 million bitcoins, at which point no more bitcoins will be created (though blocks will still be added to the chain to confirm transactions as is now, but no reward will be given for adding a block to the chain).

    Now, Bitcoins, for all purposes, have only the value that people believe they have, just like any other currency. There is only a limited number of Bitcoins in circulation, so as the demand for them goes up, the value of them goes up, and vice versa. There are people out there that enjoy knowing they can pay for legal goods without the fear of new bitcoins being added to the network (remember, once 21 million are generated, there will never be any more or any less).

    The programmer built it in so that not all 21 million bitcoins are out there already. As demand for the currency grows, more blocks are created to be "solved" and added to the chain, and the system currently rewards 50 Bitcoins for each block that is solved. But, since the blocks have become increasingly difficult to solve with just one person's computer, pooling has been created as a way to split the workload up among a pool of users (usually with GPUs now because they just crush CPU processing). Then, as the block is solved and the reward given to the pool, it's distributed proportionally to the amount of work you and others have done. Those who do more get a bigger portion of the reward.

    Every 210,000 blocks, the bounty (currently 50 bitcoins) halves itself until it reaches the point where no more are created.

    From a cost of electricity and hardware standpoint (if your electric cost per kW/h is high, it may be less appealing because you make not make enough to cover your expenses of mining), you can make more mining (helping solve the blocks) bitcoins than you initially put into the project. Seeing how 1 bitcoin is worth ~$20 right now, 50 bitcoins is worth $1000 (once you sell it out at a Bitcoin exchange and have it sent to your paypal). So solving 1 block makes since while the reward is 50 and even 25 bitcoins. Depending on the future value of the Bitcoin, maybe even processing up through the 12.5 reward could be economically feasible.

    Now is this going to make anyone rich? No. But bitcoins are in demand. Creating new ones helps stem the cost of buying them for those who wish to actually use the currency for goods. If no one was mining (helping produce) the currency and demand is how it is now, people would be paying a much larger price per Bitcoin.

    **deeeep breath** So, you crunch some numbers with your GPU in a pool, the pool solves a block and it gets added to the chain, the system rewards the pool with 50 bitcoins, the bitcoins are distributed proportionally amongst the pool for how much work each user did, each user is responsible for their own wallet (kept on their own computer, or can be hosted at an online wallet website, but they charge small fees for keeping it safe and you never know if they'll disappear and take your Bitcoins with them, no FDIC here), then the user, on their own, goes to an exchange and sells/trades the Bitcoins in exchange for physical currency (USD or whatever you use) that can be sent to their paypal accounts or however the particular exchange does their disbursements.

    Okay, hope that was helpful laurenu2. There's lots of articles if you search Google. One that explains bitcoins more is http://www.economist.com/blogs/babba...rtual-currency

    This may help too: http://doppnet.com/2011/05/mining-bitcoins/

    Okay, that's all I've got. Let's hear it guys! And it would be awesome Bigred if Bok setup a pool, as most pool managers take a 1 bitcoin fee for every block solved. If there's enough power here to do X amount of blocks per week, Bok could take the fee and use it to cover server costs and stuff for sure!
    Last edited by CaptainMooseInc; 06-15-2011 at 11:24 AM.
    Distributed Hold'em


  9. #9
    BOINC Gypsy ChertseyAl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainMooseInc View Post
    Now is this going to make anyone rich?
    One simple question - How much actual spending money have you personally made?

    Cheers,

    Al.

  10. #10
    Chertsey,

    I have literally just started. Haven't made any yet. I just got back from Europe on Friday since being there from March 15. I saw BitCoin in the news and was reading up about it and stumbled upon all this stuff. The first thing I thought when I read about the pooling was how it was distributed computing. And there have been for-pay projects before, so I came to the forums to see if there had been any discussion. When I saw there wasn't, I started a thread. I didn't know if anyone in Free-DC would be interested or not, but I know there used to be a LOT of power over here and wasn't sure if there still was. If the interest was high enough, then a pool could be created and kept to Free-DC users as to not spread it out amongst so many. And people would earn what they give to the project.

    Right now I'm a part of a pool that I just joined last night. If a Free-DC pool is created, though, I will most definitely swap over the GPU I've got running to contribute to the effort.

    And no one but each member has to try and manage all the money. The pool can be programmed to auto-disperse it and a payout automatically sent to the receiving wallet of each member with the threshold of payout minimum set by each individual user. Then it's on the user to choose a currency exchange and cash out the Bitcoins into real cash. It's no different from trading dollars for euros then.
    Distributed Hold'em


  11. #11
    BOINC Gypsy ChertseyAl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainMooseInc View Post
    Haven't made any yet
    That's all I needed to know.

    There's nothing better than a personal recommendation in ways to make $0.00.

    And for that reason, I'm out

    Cheers,

    Al.

  12. #12
    =>Team Joker<= LAURENU2's Avatar
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    Oh Cool it sounds like a DC Tron game
    What does Bok think of this

  13. #13
    Administrator Bok's Avatar
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    I'm not really too keen on it. I've heard from a few other people who have looked into it and it doesn't really seem worth it..

    Oh and the stats aren't interesting......!

  14. #14
    Old Fart Bigred's Avatar
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    I spent a good part of today researching this. It seems that the Feds are unhappy that they can't easily trace the transactions but then again it is hard to trace cash transactions. The last time I checked it was still legal to use cash. The Feds are going after people that make illegal transactions and I agree with this. It does not concern Bitcoins though. You can make an illegal transaction in whatever currency you choose.

    I've decided that tomorrow I'll fire up one of my ATI cards and see what happens. If I don't make a lot that is OK. Right now I have over 700,000,000 Boinc credits and can't do anything with them. It just isn't as exciting to make another hundred million anymore when at full power I'm making over 2 million a day.

    I'll report back about what kind of profit I make so everyone can make thier own decision. My profit margin will be greater than most since I don't have to pay for the electricity though.
    19 primes found. The largest: 1351*2^617684+1 (185945 digits)

  15. #15
    @Chertsey:

    This is why I came to community about it. I literally have been back less than a week and just setup a client myself last night to see if it would work. But I did want to start a discussion about it. I just thought the concept was interesting and wanted to see what others thought. Hopefully Bigred will have something to report back in a few days time also and then we'll see what's up. If there's no interest then it's fine, but maybe there are a few people who wouldn't mind moving some power over to a pool of their choice and seeing if it's worth it or not.

    As for
    There's nothing better than a personal recommendation in ways to make $0.00.
    ...what's the difference between recommending this and recommending some science project that's supposed to develop treatments for (insert disease) and has been crunching for years with little to no results? Or a prime number project whose last found prime is only a few months away from being 4 years ago? It's fine if you don't like the project, but don't attack me for it.

    Glad for the excitement laurenu2. Let's see what Bigred has to say in a few days.

    -Moose
    Distributed Hold'em


  16. #16
    BOINC Gypsy ChertseyAl's Avatar
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    Good for you!

    I always like an entrepreneur that's made ABSOLUTLY ****ING NOTHING and then selling his/her brilliant business plan to any forum that he can post to.

    I wish I could have a 10% share of all of the riches that you've amassed ... Oh, no, wait...

    Moderator! FFS this spam is worse than Herbalife!

    Al.

  17. #17
    Chertsey,

    Alright buddy, just because you have maybe be active more recently than me doesn't mean I'm spam. Spam would post once and never come back. Aren't you familiar with forum bots AT ALL?! This -IS- a distributed computing project, and have you noticed that I've posted almost 1400 posts since 2003 whilst you've had 64 since 2008??? Not to mention my stat signature which clearly shows I've participated in projects you've probably never even HEARD OF!

    You don't like the concept, fine. Others might. This was posted as a discussion to my OLD FRIENDS at the forum who may find this interesting/intriguing. So stop being a little BEEP You've voiced your opinion. Now shut up and just ignore the thread. It has no meaning to you, so stop reading it.
    Last edited by LAURENU2; 06-16-2011 at 01:56 AM.
    Distributed Hold'em


  18. #18
    Old Fart Bigred's Avatar
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    OK here is the deal. In the last hour I've put two GPUs on this and I've started to make some money. Not a lot yet just about $0.40 but that is more than I've made on any other project. If it continues like this with no problems, I'll add more power to it.


    Last edited by Bigred; 06-16-2011 at 06:43 AM.
    19 primes found. The largest: 1351*2^617684+1 (185945 digits)

  19. #19
    Bitclockers huh? I'm going to have to look them up and move my GPU over there I think. The slush's pool I think is just too crowded now. They are mining at 1685 Gh/s!
    Distributed Hold'em


  20. #20
    Old Fart Bigred's Avatar
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    Well it's been about 24 hours and I thought I would let everyone know what has happened. Yesterday I put 2 ATI HD5850s on it and yes I've made some money. So far about 0.40 BTC. While that may seem to be a very small amount, at the current exchange rate that would be about $8. I have no way to know if this was an average day but for the purpose of this post we'll assume so. We'll also assume the exchange rate is fairly stable. This would lead to the conclusion that I would make about $240 a month. It won't make me rich but in theory would allow me to slowly upgrade my older machines. For those of you that have to pay for your electricity it could help with the bills and maybe have a little leftover for new equipment.

    IMHO at the present there is only one worthwhile scientific project that uses GPUs. GPUGrid doesn't like my GTX260s or my ATIs. I've decided to put the rest of my ATIs on BTC mining today and after the upcoming Primegrid Challenge I'll move the Nvidias to it. I feel that unless a project like Drug Discovery comes up with a GPU application, my GPUs would be better off earning money to do upgrades. Of course this means that my Boinc scores will go way down but what good is Boinc credit anyway.

    If anyone wants to start BTC mining and needs help let me know. I found that the instructions were not very clear but I can post a step by step guide to using the Bitclockers pool.

    I really wish that Bok would reconsider running a FREE-DC pool. The people at Bitclockers get 1BTC (2%) for every block completed and we did 2 blocks yesterday. At current rates that works out to about $40 a day to offset expenses.
    19 primes found. The largest: 1351*2^617684+1 (185945 digits)

  21. #21
    Administrator Bok's Avatar
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    Tell me what I need to do and I'll set it up.

  22. #22
    Old Fart Bigred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bok View Post
    Tell me what I need to do and I'll set it up.
    I don't have a clue but I think you might want to start here. If you need me to, I can look somemore.
    19 primes found. The largest: 1351*2^617684+1 (185945 digits)

  23. #23
    Old Fart Bigred's Avatar
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    Mighty quite here. Suddenly nobody has anything to say.

    Some called it spam but that was proved wrong. Thanks to Moose for bringing it to our attention.
    19 primes found. The largest: 1351*2^617684+1 (185945 digits)

  24. #24
    Thanks for the results Bigred! I hope maybe some other interests are raised now so that a Free-DC pool would be viable. Sorry I haven't been posting much in here. I've been working to get a truck ready and setup a part time job for the summer so I can build the funds needed to go to Alaska in the fall and try to fish.

    I'll keep watch of the thread and move my GPU over if a Free-DC pool is created. We'll need a lot more than just our GPUs to make it to where we actually solve blocks and earn BCs. I'm sure we'll get there though!

    -Moose

    P.S. What do you estimate you'll generate monthly with the GPU power you currently have?
    Distributed Hold'em


  25. #25
    =>Team Joker<= LAURENU2's Avatar
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    I'm not sure I understand how to work or configure the client
    Last edited by LAURENU2; 06-19-2011 at 10:45 PM.

  26. #26
    Old Fart Bigred's Avatar
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    With the 9 ATIs running I'm making about 1 BTC a day but the current block has been running for over 28 hours. After the Primegrid challenge I'll move the 9 Nvidias over and we'll see what happens. I don't know how well they will do but I expect the output to just about double.

    Did I mention that bitclockers is giving away an ASUS 6950 at the end of the month?
    19 primes found. The largest: 1351*2^617684+1 (185945 digits)

  27. #27
    @LAURENU2

    This post should help. In it there's a link to his other one to get an individual client setup first so you understand that part. Hope this helps!

    http://www.newslobster.com/bitcoin/h...ing-in-windows
    Distributed Hold'em


  28. #28
    Old Fart Bigred's Avatar
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    Just a quick update. I'm now averaging just under 1BTC per block. Blocks run for various amounts of time. Just finished one that lasted for 48 hours. According to the bitclockers forum some days they finish 5 or 6 blocks. ATI cards seem to rule there and if you would like to know how yours would do check here.
    19 primes found. The largest: 1351*2^617684+1 (185945 digits)

  29. #29
    Old Fart Bigred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LAURENU2 View Post
    I'm not sure I understand how to work or configure the client
    Sorry I missed your post.
    Do you need a step by step guide to using Bitclockers?
    19 primes found. The largest: 1351*2^617684+1 (185945 digits)

  30. #30
    =>Team Joker<= LAURENU2's Avatar
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    Yes I just do not understand what to do with this interface
    Last edited by LAURENU2; 06-21-2011 at 06:38 PM.

  31. #31
    Old Fart Bigred's Avatar
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    First remove that image as it shows your bitcoin address.

    You have bitcoin installed and working. This is your digital wallet that lets you send and receive bitcoins. Think ATM card. Only run that when you need to transfer coins. Write down your Bitcoin address as you will need it later.

    Go here to register on Bitclockers. Once registered it will take you to the dashboard. Put in your bitcoin address. Go to the bottom of the page and create a worker. You will need to supply a unique name and password for this worker.

    Go here to download the GUIminer. During installation it will ask you where to extract to. I chose a simple path c:\bitcoin\. Once it is finished go to the folder with Guiminer and click on Guiminer.exe

    With GUIminer running change the server to bitclockers. Then put in the username and password for the worker you created. Next under device select your GPU and uncheck CPU affinity. The only thing left to do is to clickStart Mining. After a few minutes you should see in the bottom left corner Share: xx accepted where xx is the number of shares you have completed. Once you have everything running, make sure to save the profile. That way it will load the information when it restarts and all you need to do is click start mining.

    For GPUs you can create a worker for each one or put them all on one. For CPUs (not recommended) you need a worker for each box. You can check the dashboard for the estimated amount of BTC you will get for the current block. Once the current block is completed you will get your BTCs which you can also see in the dashboard. Once you have enough you can transfer them to the Bitcoin wallet you created. Once they are in your wallet you can spend (transfer) them as you see fit.

    I know that you want to know if you can mine and Boinc at the same time. The answer is yes but if you try to use the GPU for both the resources will be shared and output will only be about %50 for each.
    19 primes found. The largest: 1351*2^617684+1 (185945 digits)

  32. #32
    =>Team Joker<= LAURENU2's Avatar
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    I guess I am just dumb It just will not work for me
    all it does is give this error message
    2011-06-22 19:31:37: Listener for "Default": 22/06/2011 19:31:37, Problems communicating with bitcoin RPC

    Sure tells me a lot

  33. #33
    Old Fart Bigred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LAURENU2 View Post
    I guess I am just dumb It just will not work for me
    all it does is give this error message
    2011-06-22 19:31:37: Listener for "Default": 22/06/2011 19:31:37, Problems communicating with bitcoin RPC

    Sure tells me a lot
    Are you sure that you put in the Worker user name and password into GUIMiner? Did you put the correct Bitcoin address into the dashboard at Bitclockers?
    19 primes found. The largest: 1351*2^617684+1 (185945 digits)

  34. #34
    =>Team Joker<= LAURENU2's Avatar
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    Thats Funny this Morn it is working OK
    they must have had a temp outage just as I was working on it last night

  35. #35
    Old Fart Bigred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LAURENU2 View Post
    Thats Funny this Morn it is working OK
    they must have had a temp outage just as I was working on it last night
    I knew you could get it working.

    Now for an update. I've been running this for 8 days and have earned just over 7BTC. That might not sound like much but at the current exchange rate it is over 100USD. Yesterday I moved all my Nvidia cards to this and the performance is dismal at best. Performance is measured in MH/S, that's Million Hashes Per Second. My Nvidia GTX260s get about 40MH/S while my GTX460 gets about 55MH/S. As a comparission my ATI HD4850 gets 80MH/S and my HD5850 gets about 240MH/S. I will leave the Nvidias on it over the weekend but will probably put them back on PG come Monday.
    19 primes found. The largest: 1351*2^617684+1 (185945 digits)

  36. #36
    =>Team Joker<= LAURENU2's Avatar
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    Thanks BigR I can build or repair computers , but working with or understanding the instructions
    of a programs is VaRRRRRRy hard for me

  37. #37
    Old Fart Bigred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LAURENU2 View Post
    Thanks BigR I can build or repair computers , but working with or understanding the instructions
    of a programs is VaRRRRRRy hard for me
    Are you making any money yet?
    19 primes found. The largest: 1351*2^617684+1 (185945 digits)

  38. #38
    =>Team Joker<= LAURENU2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigred View Post
    Are you making any money yet?
    I do not know How do I know

  39. #39
    Old Fart Bigred's Avatar
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    At bitclockers go to the dashboard and look near the top for BTC. That is the amount of Bitcoins you've earned.
    19 primes found. The largest: 1351*2^617684+1 (185945 digits)

  40. #40
    =>Team Joker<= LAURENU2's Avatar
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